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Post by coolbarn on Sept 29, 2014 6:10:56 GMT -5
Hi Skinburn, interesting discussion mate To be honest, I don't think the band could care less what our, as in the core fan base, opinions are on what songs they should or should not write or what type of genre they do it in. That depends on certain conditions. Duran Duran, regardless of them saying they are like some "Art School" band (yeah right), are all about sales and money. That's not a judgement, that's just how they are. I know for a fact that if Apple said to them right now "We'll give you $100 million dollars like we did for U2 to release another Red Carpet Massacre, although this time we want even more club dance-music and extra 'fricky-frickies' please" the band would agree quicker than you could say "you're f-ing joking". The fact that much of the core fanbase would be up in arms over this wouldn't enter into it; the band would happily do it without a second thought. However theoretically if Timbaland and Timberlake contacted Duran tomorrow and said they would work on DD14 for free, I honestly think the band would pass up the offer. I remember Simon stating that some people made it very clear they didn't like Red Carpet Massacre. I think the band were at least a little hurt that the album didn't resonate with all the fans, and were very hurt that it didn't sell more copies. As a result I think they DO care about the fanbase and its opinions, but will totally ignore them if there is a chance for them to make money and be back in the public eye again. Let's face it, if you're a 'Durannie' you're going to buy the album anyway. That's right, that's why they HAVE to care what we think. If they make an album that targets teenagers, and as expected teenagers have no desire to listen to it, then it's WE FANS who will keep the band going. How many new fans did Duran Duran make because of Astronaut? And because of RCM? And because of AYNIN? Not many. It's the diehards like us, and the 80s fans who enjoyed Duran back in the day and love going to concerts, that are the band's bread and butter. If you start alienating old fans, and aren't making new ones, then within a few tours you won't have much butter to spread on the one small piece of bread you can now only afford. It does not behoove any artist to take their fans for granted. Duran Duran have always enjoyed setting new standards for others to follow, never satisfied with what they produce so they keep raising the bar and strive to produce music that's going to appeal to the mass audience. I disagree with the first part, but agree with the end. Duran haven't set trends or standards for others to follow since the early 80s. From Big Thing on they often tended to follow the popular music at the time trying to have a hit. Say what you will about Notorious, but that was the last time the band said "Screw it, we don't care that funk music isn't all the rage right now, we're going to make the sort of music we want to make regardless". I like Notorious because of that. The Internet is indeed a powerful tool and, if used correctly, can be a fantastic marketing opportunity. However, if you scroll through all the posts on every single Duran Duran forum it's not going to be constructive or effective time management is it? Oh come on, obviously you don't have to scroll through all the posts on every single Duran Duran forum to glean insights into your fans' opinions. I work a full-time job for 38 hours every week. I also have a computer business on the side where I average an additional 5 hours per week. I also teach martial arts for an additional 8 hours a week. So all up I average 51 hours per week working, which isn't huge but is above average. I also have a wife and two kids that I love spending time with. Now none of my income is based on Duran Duran selling records and concert tickets, but even I can spend a couple of hours a day on DD sites and obviously even more time on my days off. If I can find the time to find out the likes and dislikes of Duran Duran fans on the internet, then surely the band themselves can do so as well. I mean I know Nick loves going out and would attend the opening of an envelope, but with the internet being ubiquitous and available on multiple devices, why wouldn't the band use it to listen to their fans? And they DON'T have to read EVERY post on every forum to get a clue of the fans' likes and dislikes. Why would they want to search through thousands upon thousands of posts and reading peoples comments, many of them negative. You don't think that if many different fans are expressing the same negative thoughts, that the band shouldn't be interested? My question to you is why WOULDN'T they want to search through threads and reading comments? If you can't stand criticism as an artist then you're not much of an artist in my opinion. Most of the feedback will be positive, but if you're going to ignore feedback just because it's negative, then it doesn't say much about you as a person/group. Not to mention most of the trolls who only write negative and silly stuff about the band have been banned years ago, so most of the discussions on this and the other major Duran boards have been sensible and civil for years. Hey I did say MOST I can understand the importance of feedback but Duran are veterans at what they do now and not looking to break into what's hot and what's not. Not true. The band opted to write with Timbaland and Timberlake because they were hot at the time. Even recently they were given a mix tape from Mark Ronson to hear "what the kids are listening to". Make no mistake about it - the band want to be hotter than a four-balled tomcat. They just haven't succeeded - yet. Maybe DD14 will change this, maybe not. Either way I don't care, I just want some more great music worthy of this great band
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Post by jamieaiken919 on Sept 29, 2014 16:46:40 GMT -5
Coolbarn, your assumption that there are very few young people who like DD and who were drawn to them from Astronaut and RCM is quite frankly wrong. The majority of the fans I know who are around my age (I'm 24, for the record) appreciate RCM for what it was, the same as we do all their albums. We appreciate that this band has always been open to changing it's sound and is willing to try new things. It's the "old school Duranies" that I've seen the most whining from. So don't speak for us when you don't know our opinions.
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Post by blaahh on Sept 29, 2014 17:09:45 GMT -5
Its not whining, its largely a perspective from 34 years of following DD. Your perspective is different from a shorter time span of enjoying the band and their music. There is nothing wrong with either view at all, they are just different.
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Post by trevgreg on Sept 29, 2014 20:23:54 GMT -5
Its not whining, its largely a perspective from 34 years of following DD. Your perspective is different from a shorter time span of enjoying the band and their music. There is nothing wrong with either view at all, they are just different. Just to follow up on this too... I don't think Coolbarn was saying that the band did not make any fans from Astronaut to RCM. He was just stating that the band didn't gain a significant number of new fans as a result of any of those three albums. I won't get into the whole sales debate on here. But just for example, with the exception of Astronaut, none of the albums since Medazzaland have sold over 100k inside the U.S. Is it likely that new fans came in and made up some of those sales numbers? Yeah, absolutely. But neither sold enough to the point that it set the charts on fire either. On top of that, I'm sure there were some old fans that passed on buying a certain release and some new ones that came in and made up for those. But it does sort of hint that there's a consistent group of people that do buy whatever the band makes too. There's nothing wrong with that... it's just the way it is. Now, if you want to get into specifics of it all, you could also argue that maybe it wasn't the 'new' album or a particular single that got new fans into the fold either. It also could have been some sort of combination of an interest in their back catalog and any new material coming out around the same time. I'm almost 30 years old and I got into the band as a result of exploring both their prior work and a new album of theirs that followed shortly after that (Pop Trash). So did Pop Trash make me a DD fan in the end? Likely not on its own, but it certainly did cement my emerging fandom for good. In terms of what music they should making (catering to this group of 'fans', doing what they want, etc.), that's always up for debate. Some believe that they should be embracing whatever their prior strengths were and some feel that they should be doing something entirely different every single time. For that, there's no definitive answer... just whatever preferences someone has. I do know that no particular style is going to make every single person happy. Just as some people didn't like the contemporary feel or use of drum machines on RCM, there were some that felt the band was 'trying to hard' to recapture their original sound on AYNIN. damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Post by Dr Of The Revolution on Sept 30, 2014 2:48:58 GMT -5
Coolbarn, your assumption that there are very few young people who like DD and who were drawn to them from Astronaut and RCM is quite frankly wrong. The majority of the fans I know who are around my age (I'm 24, for the record) appreciate RCM for what it was, the same as we do all their albums. We appreciate that this band has always been open to changing it's sound and is willing to try new things. It's the "old school Duranies" that I've seen the most whining from. So don't speak for us when you don't know our opinions. Just out of curiosity, not criticism : How many young fans do you know ?
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Post by coolbarn on Sept 30, 2014 4:19:43 GMT -5
Coolbarn, your assumption that there are very few young people who like DD and who were drawn to them from Astronaut and RCM is quite frankly wrong. Hi Jamie, but I think it is your analysis of my post which is quite frankly wrong. Please reread what I said: If they make an album that targets teenagers, and as expected teenagers have no desire to listen to it, then it's WE FANS who will keep the band going. How many new fans did Duran Duran make because of Astronaut? And because of RCM? And because of AYNIN? Not many. It's the diehards like us, and the 80s fans who enjoyed Duran back in the day and love going to concerts, that are the band's bread and butter.<Recently, owing to consumer demand, I said I would cut RCM some slack. Let the record show that I have to mention it briefly because it backs up some of my long-winded points> Duran Duran made an album with Timbaland and Justin Timberlake of all people. What demographic do you really think they were targeting - the baby boomers??? Do you really think they made an album like that because they knew that 40-somethings and older were going to fall in love with it and/or make them rediscover Duran Duran? The answers are no and no. Here is a question for you. How many teenagers, who had never even heard of Duran Duran before, listened to Falling Down and thought "wow, I have to hear more from this band"? I can't make it clearer, I said "NEW fans" and even bolded it and underlined it. Next time it looks like I'll have to put it in italics combined with flashing neon lights and an extremely loud megaphone to make it even more obvious The single 'Sunrise' wouldn't have brought many new fans who didn't know Duran Duran into the fold. The single 'What Happens Tomorrow' wouldn't have brought many new fans who didn't know Duran Duran into the fold. The single 'Falling Down' wouldn't have brought many new fans who didn't know Duran Duran into the fold. The single 'All You Need Is Now' wouldn't have brought many new fans who didn't know Duran Duran into the fold. I'm not saying that young people can't appreciate Duran Duran. Not at all. I'm sure that many young people have been introduced to the band and absolutely adore them; well done to them, they have great taste! In fact my 8 year old son loves the band, and even loves stuff like Bedroom Toys (which is one of his favourite Duran songs) which makes him quite a rarity around here! Much like I fell in love with The Beatles when I was a kid thanks to my Mum's record collection, my own son loves my favourite bands as well (and The Beatles too of course, I introduced him to ALL the classic groups ) I would just suggest that more teenagers and 20-somethings who love Duran Duran and didn't grow up with the band when they were massive, got into the lads after hearing Girls On Film or Rio rather than Skin Divers or The Man Who Stole A Leopard. The majority of the fans I know who are around my age (I'm 24, for the record) appreciate RCM for what it was, the same as we do all their albums. I never said that young people can't appreciate RCM. As mentioned my own children quite enjoy it, and they are 11 and 8. I just said the album wouldn't have garnered the new fans that the band were chasing, and even remote tribesmen in the Kalahari who's only ability to make music comes from hitting sticks together and chanting in unison know this to be true. We appreciate that this band has always been open to changing it's sound and is willing to try new things. Totally agree. The band would mud-wrestle their own grandmothers if it meant them having a hit and becoming big again. They love all types of music and have tried various genres throughout their long career, and good for them for doing that. That does NOT mean that they are amazing at every single one of those genres. No band in the history of music with any sort of longevity could claim to have achieved this - I mean even The Beatles weren't able to release a Sgt. Peppers every time were they? It also means that not every new thing they try is necessarily a good idea. Albums like Thank You and RCM were terrible ideas done poorly, and I'll call them out on that just as loudly as I'll praise albums like Rio, their debut album, or AYNIN. It's the "old school Duranies" that I've seen the most whining from. So don't speak for us when you don't know our opinions. Okay, I'll look further into this. Could any fans here under the age of 25 please tell me if you got into Duran Duran because the first song you heard from the band, and the song which made you want to find out more about them and their back-catalogue, was from either Astronaut, Red Carpet Massacre, or All You Need Is Now? From all these replies I shall be able to determine whether it is people who fulfill the above criteria, or rather whether it's 40 and 50-somethings who grew up with and loved the band in the early-mid 80s who are Duran Duran's bread and butter. My gut instinct tells me it's the latter. My interactions and knowledge of the regulars on this and other Duran forums tell me it's the latter. My experiences at Duran Duran concerts tells me it's the latter. Even that little Kalahari bushman whose musical experience includes whistling and making that funny clicking noise in his throat can tell me it's the latter. But I'm open to rebuttal Jamie my young friend, if it turns out that teenagers who adore Astronaut make up the bulk of Duran's fanbase, then I will be happy to eat humble pie (Just having some fun Jamie, I know you weren't being malicious in your post and was just sticking up for yourself and other younger Duran Duran fans. Nothing personal mate, it's just that my 'smart-arse mode' is often enacted if I appear to be misquoted. Let the record show I love all Duran Duran fans regardless of their age or history ) Just to follow up on this too... I don't think Coolbarn was saying that the band did not make any fans from Astronaut to RCM. He was just stating that the band didn't gain a significant number of new fans as a result of any of those three albums. Ding ding ding - you win Trevgreg, thanks for playing! Jeff, please tell Trev what amazing prizes he has won! So Trevgreg, please let us know, do you want to come back next week and play for the lot? Or are you going to take your incredible prizes and run? In terms of what music they should making (catering to this group of 'fans', doing what they want, etc.), that's always up for debate. Some believe that they should be embracing whatever their prior strengths were and some feel that they should be doing something entirely different every single time. For that, there's no definitive answer... just whatever preferences someone has. I do know that no particular style is going to make every single person happy. Just as some people didn't like the contemporary feel or use of drum machines on RCM, there were some that felt the band was 'trying to hard' to recapture their original sound on AYNIN. damned if you do, damned if you don't. Great point Trevgreg, you are so right. I just feel there are a lot more people in one of the above groups than the other. Whether this ever influences the type of music the band make or not, even subconsciously, only the band truly knows that.
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Post by Droid on Sept 30, 2014 14:16:54 GMT -5
It's the "old school Duranies" that I've seen the most whining from. So don't speak for us when you don't know our opinions. Okay, I'll look further into this. Could any fans here under the age of 25 please tell me if you got into Duran Duran because the first song you heard from the band, and the song which made you want to find out more about them and their back-catalogue, was from either Astronaut, Red Carpet Massacre, or All You Need Is Now? From all these replies I shall be able to determine whether it is people who fulfill the above criteria, or rather whether it's 40 and 50-somethings who grew up with and loved the band in the early-mid 80s who are Duran Duran's bread and butter. I can't help but notice you skipped a generation. While I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make, DD DO have a decent percentage of '90s fans, (namely those of us in our early to mid 30s now) who came into the fold because of TWA - an album that fit in quite well with what was popular at the time. This is particularly significant after their comparatively low period of the late '80s, when I'll bet people thought they'd disappear like other '80s acts. But to be fair, that peak wasn't nearly as high as their heyday, and they were still relatively young. It would be harder to repeat that success now and gain more young fans, but not impossible. I do agree though that aiming specifically at teens or top-40 fans isn't the best way to go about it. Might make a bigger impact if they DON'T focus on who they're supposed to please and just make music they are good at and they enjoy. Maybe the hipster generation could get into that or something. Or did I just ramble on for a paragraph and miss the point entirely?
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 1, 2014 0:21:22 GMT -5
I can't help but notice you skipped a generation. Hi Dura, I intentionally skipped the 30 somethings because they didn't really quite fit in to that particular argument. My convoluted point was that by chasing certain genres and using certain producers that were popular primarily with teenagers and 20-somethings who still follow the charts, it means that Duran Duran were intentionally trying to appeal to said teenagers and 20-somethings. I mean you don't hire an artist who charges $300,000 per track if you're an indie "art-school project"; you do so to sell records, and as many as possible. I'm yet to hear of any person who heard Falling Down, and as a result fell in love with Duran Duran and looked into all their back-catalogue. Jamie said "Coolbarn, your assumption that there are very few young people who like DD and who were drawn to them from Astronaut and RCM is quite frankly wrong". In other words, if I'm wrong, then Jamie is saying there ARE many young people who like DD who WERE drawn to them solely due to Astronaut, RCM, or AYNIN. I'd like to know why he thinks this, and am also interested in Dr Of The Revolution's question as to how many young fans Jamie actually knows. If there are lots of young, recently inducted Duran Duran fans as suggested, where are they on these forums? Where are they at Duran Duran concerts? Where are the increasing albums sales as a result of this new found patronage? I'm not calling Jamie a liar, I'm just very interested in hearing his explanation So Dura the 30-somethings on this board are just a fraction too old to fit into being classified as being "young fans", and there aren't quite enough of them to fit into being classified as "Duran Duran's bread and butter". So I'll just classify them as intelligent, sexy, incredible people who have great taste in music Or did I just ramble on for a paragraph and miss the point entirely? Are you seriously asking the undisputed king of rambling as to whether you were rambling? Well I guess I am an authority on the matter No, I enjoyed your post as per usual, and agree that there would be quite a few younger Duran Duran fans who came on board thanks to Ordinary World, Come Undone, and The Wedding Album. As I mentioned though you just miss out on getting a mention for the chronological reasons listed above. Take care.
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Post by jamieaiken919 on Oct 1, 2014 5:20:48 GMT -5
There are a LOT of us at concerts. Unfortunately myself and a lot of others my age don't have a lot of disposable income to spend on concert tickets, added to the fact that the guys haven't toured as much in the past ten years as they did in the eighties.
Do you honestly think that just because we don't (or can't) attend concerts, or that we're not active on forums like this one, that we don't exist? That we can't have a say because we're part of some demographic that apparently is so small that we don't exist or don't matter?
Story time, coolbarn- the first song I heard, at fourteen years old, of Duran Duran's was indeed Reach Up For The Sunrise. That was the song that made me fall in love with this band and their music. Astronaut was the first album I got. And it sold me on them completely. In the ten years since then, I've been fortunate enough to see them in concert- only once, as apparently I can't compete with the people who've been around 'since the beginning'- and have been able to acquire all their albums. But not everyone my age has the resources to do so.
My entire point with my posts is that I'm sick of seeing people ragging on the "lesser" albums and then treating the people who do like them like "lesser" fans because they do. I've noticed it here, I've noticed it other places, and frankly I'm tired of being talked down to because I happened to be born after the band had their heyday. It doesn't bloody matter when you became a fan or how you did, what album got you into them or which albums you prefer, if you like the band, you're a fan. You don't get to tell anyone else how they get to enjoy that.
I want to say that this post by saying this isn't directed at anyone in particular here or anywhere else. I only singled out coolbarn because he was the one who replied to my original post and asked for a story. I'm just sick of this permeating attitude that's invaded this fanbase. It makes me and a lot of others feel excluded and I'm tired of it.
I'm also sorry for anyone who sat through and read this whole thing.
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 1, 2014 6:51:01 GMT -5
There are a LOT of us at concerts. Unfortunately myself and a lot of others my age don't have a lot of disposable income to spend on concert tickets, added to the fact that the guys haven't toured as much in the past ten years as they did in the eighties. Well that must be a lot different where you live, and that's cool. Where I live (Australia) probably 97% of the audience are people over 35. Probably 2% are kids/friends of these people over 35. Which leaves an almighty 1% at best (and those stats are being charitable) consisting of teenagers/20-somethings who have come by themselves to see the band because they enjoyed their music on Youtube. In my opinion to say there are a "LOT" of you at concerts is not the norm for most people here, but of course you go to different concerts to us and are certainly entitled to that opinion. Do you honestly think that just because we don't (or can't) attend concerts, or that we're not active on forums like this one, that we don't exist? No I did not say that. Of course fans that fit your demographic exist. I'm just saying it's so small as to barely make a ripple for Duran's record sales and concert tickets. Why do you think the band always play a similar setlist at almost every concert? Why do you think they haven't done a tour and concentrated on B-Sides and fan favourites? Because they have to appeal to the largest common denominator, and as it turns out the largest common denominator are older fans who loved Girls On Film and Hungry Like The Wolf, not new fans who love Skin Divers and Networker Nation. That's not saying that young people aren't, shouldn't, or can't be Duran Duran fans. The more fans the band has the better as far as I'm concerned. That's purely pointing out the facts and numbers, not making any sort of judgement call. That we can't have a say because we're part of some demographic that apparently is so small that we don't exist or don't matter? Of course not, don't get too touchy about it. I'm just saying the small group of younger Duran Duran fans are not the band's money earners - you yourself admitted this at the beginning of the post. So it wouldn't be wise for ANY band, not just Duran Duran, to concentrate on making music that appeals to less than 5% of their audience if it means that 95% are going to feel alienated. The band aren't mind readers. They don't know for a fact how their fans are going to respond to each new release (except for the small number of nut-jobs who would rave about an album consisting of Duran Duran farting for 50 minutes; they're always going to go crazy about each release). But if they bothered to read Duran Duran forums they SHOULD be able to pick up certain themes from the majority of their fans, which as it turns out is people who grew up and loved listening to music in the 80s. Story time, coolbarn- the first song I heard, at fourteen years old, of Duran Duran's was indeed Reach Up For The Sunrise. That was the song that made me fall in love with this band and their music. Astronaut was the first album I got. And it sold me on them completely. Cool story, and I mean that seriously. I'm glad to hear some specifics from you, and not just you saying generalisations like "there are a lot of us at concerts" etc. I am glad to hear from somebody young who discovered Duran Duran thanks to Astronaut, and hope you keep contributing on this forum to breathe some different opinions around here as you have been doing. How did Astronaut sound to you when you heard it? Current? Retro? Middle Of The Road? Which songs do you love? Which songs don't you love? How do you think Andy's guitaring on the album compared to his earlier stuff, and how do you rate Dom's axe-work? What did you think of the production on Astronaut? Anyway enough questions from me In the ten years since then, I've been fortunate enough to see them in concert- only once, as apparently I can't compete with the people who've been around 'since the beginning'- and have been able to acquire all their albums. But not everyone my age has the resources to do so. It's not a competition dude. I was enjoying your post until you started playing the victim there. Please keep staying positive and don't make it a "them vs us" theme around here. My entire point with my posts is that I'm sick of seeing people ragging on the "lesser" albums and then treating the people who do like them like "lesser" fans because they do. Dude welcome to the real world. You get any people into a group who all appreciate the same artist/singer/sportsman/celebrity and there is going to be discussions not only about their greatest pieces of work, but also their worst pieces of work. Especially when it's a 'quiet time' for the band and there isn't much news happening. Every 6 months there will be threads titled "Duran's best album", "Duran's worst album", "Top 5 Duran songs", "Worst 5 Duran songs" etc etc. If you're one of those fans who can only accept positive news about the people you admire, then you might as well turn your computer off now. Get into a bubble and ring your one other friend who agrees 100% with all your opinions on songs and songwriters, and you two can keep agreeing with each other until the cows come home. In my experience most people here who post something which could be deemed to be negative or critical of the band, tend to do so in a respectful manner. We don't have too many arguments, and all of the Duran trolls have been booted off this forum years ago. That's why I love this forum and LizardKing's site (the only other Duran site I frequent), because the administrators of these two great sites nip crap in the bud early. I have met (not personally) some of the nicest people in the world on these two forums, and am yet to really see anybody treat anyone else as a "lesser" fan as you put it. Make no mistake, every regular here is equal. Whether you're that crazy dude who has every poster the band has released since 1977 and 15 napkins with Nick Rhodes saliva on it, or the general lurker/sometimes poster who comes here every day but doesn't contribute every day. I've noticed it here, I've noticed it other places, and frankly I'm tired of being talked down to because I happened to be born after the band had their heyday. It doesn't bloody matter when you became a fan or how you did, what album got you into them or which albums you prefer, if you like the band, you're a fan. You don't get to tell anyone else how they get to enjoy that. Totally agree that it doesn't matter when you became a fan, just that you are a fan. Totally disagree that you're intentionally being talked down to. I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU FEEL THIS IS HAPPENING , and you are entitled to your opinion, but I honestly don't know one person here who would maliciously say such a thing to make you feel that way. Even the debate I have had with you in this thread is based purely on what you have posted, not you as a person. I don't care whether you're 24, 44, or 94, or have been a fan for 10, 30, or 100 years. I would have posted exactly the same thing. I want to say that this post by saying this isn't directed at anyone in particular here or anywhere else. I only singled out coolbarn because he was the one who replied to my original post and asked for a story. Like I said I enjoyed your story, so thanks for posting. Hoping to hear many more from you. I'm just sick of this permeating attitude that's invaded this fanbase. It makes me and a lot of others feel excluded and I'm tired of it. There's that victim thing happening again. Stay positive Jamie my friend. I want to hear, and understand your feelings, but sadly I can't empathise or understand all of them as I think most of the regulars here are extremely tolerant and friendly. All I can say is please try and read every post from a neutral perspective - if you go looking for things which could be construed as negative or trying to downplay your feelings and opinion, then you're going to go mad. Remember it's not easy conveying feelings on internet message boards, emoticons can only do so much I'm also sorry for anyone who sat through and read this whole thing. Don't be silly mate, am really glad you opened up. I hope you continue to post and put forward your opinions. Just remember one thing - if anybody here criticises Duran Duran, or an album/song/genre/producer/musician you love, they're not criticising you personally. Try not to take things personally, I know it's not easy, but if you try and take everything as coming from a neutral perspective, and is not targeting you yourself, then it will make it easier to get involved in discussions and not feel that you aren't being treated as a "real fan", or that your opinions are not being validated. Take care
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