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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 17:32:48 GMT -5
So i would wager these are Dj remix service mixes (ultimix, direct hit etc) of the Pettibone Us mixes (rather than the euro house ones). So they could be semi official a la Paula Abdul releasing the Ultimix of Straight Up on her 1990 remix album, but their 'lack of quality' is down to the quality of the remixer and i doubt them had access to the multi tracks and stems. Thanks pocketdemon, I had not seen the poster. Personally, I think blaahh is correct, they are from a DJ mixing service, which is a grey area. They are certainly not remixed in any way, just edited with loops of the Eurohouse mixes. i guess i'd say that the difference is, assuming that premise is correct, rather than being solely on a DMC compilation or whatever then Capitol chose to send them out to a ltd no of DJs in the US...
Well, it could be similarly argued that all of the '98 remixes were similarly farmed out things - maybe just with better technology available - & i don't personally think that all of them were particularly wonderful, but they're accepted as being part of the official discography.
That said, wasn't there at least one additional Recall 22 Rio mix on a DMC compilation but not that French emi promo CD? So, 3 of the mixes would logically be 'canon' whilst the other's not, despite them all being commissioned...
...but that would then mean that the only reason why the AVTAK & Serious mixes were official was because they weren't released... So if there's an extra Recall 22 mix that's neither on a promo nor a DMC thing then it's official.
Then, if we're looking solely on the basis of quality then there's something like the Extended Mix of Notorious which is *really* shonky imho (given that it's just an intro tacked onto the song), but obviously was the primary official release so we can't really kick it out.
That said, i'm probably just arguing for the sake of it as i needed a two minute distraction. it really doesn't matter to me either which way.
Perhaps, even if the premise is correct that they're originally from a DJ Service, there are just a few too many discrepancies with other things to make any kind of rule here...?
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Post by Dr Of The Revolution on Nov 10, 2014 19:31:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 0:03:56 GMT -5
Just thinking things through a little further...
According to the accepted history, both EMi & Capitol have cocked up (UK English for 'made a mistake' in case anyone doesn't know) & put incorrect versions of things onto official releases. So, for example, the alt of TTS on the US CU CDS, & the PE & HBTR mixes on Strange Behaviour.
Now, being cock ups, it can't sensibly be argued that they were 'approved mixes for release' from either the record company's or Duran's perspective, however we've accepted them as being 'proper' even though their inclusion was in error.
So, according to that definition, neither the record company nor Duran need to have approved something for release for it to be 'proper' - it just has to have been in the archives of the record company & stuck on some release by mistake.
Similarly, we appear to be accepting that things like the AVTAK & Serious remixes are 'proper' - & would do if the Bob Clearmountain iTSiSK? or Marshall Jefferson Drug remixes appeared... Even though they were all rejected for official release by the record company &/or Duran for whatever reason. Then, something like the stuff on the AT tapes is 'proper' despite it predominantly never been in a record company's archive - just (mostly) things that Andy had been working on - &, so the story goes, they were inadvertently put into the charity auction without Andy actively wanting them to be... The same applying to Heart Of Gold or Beautiful Colours or Tomorrow Never Dies or any of the other numerous demos that haven't been officially released.
(i'm not explicitly meaning demos of tracks that have never been released, it's just illustrative of demos that people have generally thought are cool - & obviously some demos have been officially released)
&, finally, going back to the previous post, we accept the 98 remixes as being 'proper' despite it having been EMi commissioning various people to make mixes (as opposed to Duran themselves) - &, as noted, at least one of the commissioned mixes, that wasn't used on a promo ttbomk, ended up on a DMC (DJ Service) CD.
So the pre-established rules appear to be that, in order for something to be 'proper', it was in either the record company's or Duran's archives or commissioned by the record company or Duran or released or not - not that there has to be any active desire to have wanted or deliberate informed consent to release anything specifically by either side...
...&, under that premise, the ASWi mixes are 'proper' - esp as there's nothing to actively demonstrate that they were from a DJ Service. Well, the DJ Service releases of the time appeared on vinyl (or possibly CD), not cassette - whereas this Capitol promo tape appears to be the only known source.
if, however, we want to alter the rules so that the ASWi mixes, which were both 'in the record company's archives/hands' (obviously) & deliberately, not accidentally, stuck on to an official, albeit promo, release are not 'proper' - surely that would at least mean that the TTS, PE & HBTR mixes are also not 'proper'; esp as we don't know their origins?
&, arguably, every rejected or otherwise unreleased mix should be treated as garbage by the fans as not being 'proper' (again, something does not have to be good to be 'proper') - so there'd be no real interest in now trying to locate something like the Clearmountain or Jefferson mixes(?).
As a slightly different 'grey area' question then going back then there was the NR competition run by Sony which, whilst it never had a winner ttbomk, ended up with dd(m).com having a CD of both 'official' & 'selected (i imagine the best) competition entries' remixes to use on the site.
Now, assuming my recollection's correct, it was a Sony competition, not a dd(m) one, & the entries were sent to Sony - so logically Sony must have compiled the CD that dd(m) received... ...& then a small no of both 'official' & 'competition entries' from that CD were used in official dd(m) videos & whatnot.
(i don't believe it's known who else other than dd(m) received the CD, simply that they did) So, was whatever was on that CD 'proper' or not? Or, rather was it just the official remixes, was it everything that was used by dd(m) (as that's them being officially released) or was it everything as it was an official CD given to them by the label?
Similarly, i've no axe to grind with this personally as i didn't enter the competition - just wondering where we're aiming to draw the line?
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redmumba
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Post by redmumba on Nov 11, 2014 7:01:39 GMT -5
Just thinking things through a little further...
According to the accepted history, both EMi & Capitol have cocked up (UK English for 'made a mistake' in case anyone doesn't know) & put incorrect versions of things onto official releases. So, for example, the alt of TTS on the US CU CDS, & the PE & HBTR mixes on Strange Behaviour.
Now, being cock ups, it can't sensibly be argued that they were 'approved mixes for release' from either the record company's or Duran's perspective, however we've accept them as being 'proper' even though their inclusion was in error.
So, according to that definition, neither the record company nor Duran need to have approved something for release for it to be 'proper' - it just has to have been in the archives of the record company & stuck on some release by mistake. To further illustrate this point, quite a few years ago there was a previously unheard remix of "Rio" that was discovered on this VA compilation called Classic Cuts: The 12" Box 80s (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Classic-Cuts-The-12-Box-80s/release/2804215). Sometimes a compilation by a certain artist can yield versions that have never been released before - and who knows why someone pulled a certain version of a song from the record company's vaults to be included? I have compilations by other artists I collect where a unique edit or completely different version of a song has been used.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 8:50:10 GMT -5
Just thinking things through a little further...
According to the accepted history, both EMi & Capitol have cocked up (UK English for 'made a mistake' in case anyone doesn't know) & put incorrect versions of things onto official releases. So, for example, the alt of TTS on the US CU CDS, & the PE & HBTR mixes on Strange Behaviour.
Now, being cock ups, it can't sensibly be argued that they were 'approved mixes for release' from either the record company's or Duran's perspective, however we've accept them as being 'proper' even though their inclusion was in error.
So, according to that definition, neither the record company nor Duran need to have approved something for release for it to be 'proper' - it just has to have been in the archives of the record company & stuck on some release by mistake. To further illustrate this point, quite a few years ago there was a previously unheard remix of "Rio" that was discovered on this VA compilation called Classic Cuts: The 12" Box 80s (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Classic-Cuts-The-12-Box-80s/release/2804215). Sometimes a compilation by a certain artist can yield versions that have never been released before - and who knows why someone pulled a certain version of a song from the record company's vaults to be included? I have compilations by other artists I collect where a unique edit or completely different version of a song has been used.
Another good example...
Yeah, again it's accepted as being 'proper' on the basis of being on an official release, but there's not even any info to demonstrate that the version was created by anyone who was somehow magically 'more proper' than whoever made the ASWi tracks to create an artificial distinction.
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Post by Sir rogerlejohn jr. on Nov 11, 2014 11:40:25 GMT -5
Just thinking things through a little further...
According to the accepted history, both EMi & Capitol have cocked up (UK English for 'made a mistake' in case anyone doesn't know) & put incorrect versions of things onto official releases. So, for example, the alt of TTS on the US CU CDS, & the PE & HBTR mixes on Strange Behaviour.
Now, being cock ups, it can't sensibly be argued that they were 'approved mixes for release' from either the record company's or Duran's perspective, however we've accepted them as being 'proper' even though their inclusion was in error.
So, according to that definition, neither the record company nor Duran need to have approved something for release for it to be 'proper' - it just has to have been in the archives of the record company & stuck on some release by mistake.
Similarly, we appear to be accepting that things like the AVTAK & Serious remixes are 'proper' - & would do if the Bob Clearmountain iTSiSK? or Marshall Jefferson Drug remixes appeared... Even though they were all rejected for official release by the record company &/or Duran for whatever reason. Then, something like the stuff on the AT tapes is 'proper' despite it predominantly never been in a record company's archive - just (mostly) things that Andy had been working on - &, so the story goes, they were inadvertently put into the charity auction without Andy actively wanting them to be... The same applying to Heart Of Gold or Beautiful Colours or Tomorrow Never Dies or any of the other numerous demos that haven't been officially released.
(i'm not explicitly meaning demos of tracks that have never been released, it's just illustrative of demos that people have generally thought are cool - & obviously some demos have been officially released)
&, finally, going back to the previous post, we accept the 98 remixes as being 'proper' despite it having been EMi commissioning various people to make mixes (as opposed to Duran themselves) - &, as noted, at least one of the commissioned mixes, that wasn't used on a promo ttbomk, ended up on a DMC (DJ Service) CD.
So the pre-established rules appear to be that, in order for something to be 'proper', it was in either the record company's or Duran's archives or commissioned by the record company or Duran or released or not - not that there has to be any active desire to have wanted or deliberate informed consent to release anything specifically by either side...
...&, under that premise, the ASWi mixes are 'proper' - esp as there's nothing to actively demonstrate that they were from a DJ Service. Well, the DJ Service releases of the time appeared on vinyl (or possibly CD), not cassette - whereas this Capitol promo tape appears to be the only known source.
if, however, we want to alter the rules so that the ASWi mixes, which were both 'in the record company's archives/hands' (obviously) & deliberately, not accidentally, stuck on to an official, albeit promo, release are not 'proper' - surely that would at least mean that the TTS, PE & HBTR mixes are also not 'proper'; esp as we don't know their origins?
&, arguably, every rejected or otherwise unreleased mix should be treated as garbage by the fans as not being 'proper' (again, something does not have to be good to be 'proper') - so there'd be no real interest in now trying to locate something like the Clearmountain or Jefferson mixes(?).
As a slightly different 'grey area' question then going back then there was the NR competition run by Sony which, whilst it never had a winner ttbomk, ended up with dd(m).com having a CD of both 'official' & 'selected (i imagine the best) competition entries' remixes to use on the site.
Now, assuming my recollection's correct, it was a Sony competition, not a dd(m) one, & the entries were sent to Sony - so logically Sony must have compiled the CD that dd(m) received... ...& then a small no of both 'official' & 'competition entries' from that CD were used in official dd(m) videos & whatnot.
(i don't believe it's known who else other than dd(m) received the CD, simply that they did) So, was whatever was on that CD 'proper' or not? Or, rather was it just the official remixes, was it everything that was used by dd(m) (as that's them being officially released) or was it everything as it was an official CD given to them by the label?
Similarly, i've no axe to grind with this personally as i didn't enter the competition - just wondering where we're aiming to draw the line?
Impressive knowledge here, far beyond the official camp of Duran Duran. Duranduran.no was never a threat to Duran Duran. Merely a site who promoted the band and gave great insight to the band. Not a cheap bootleg camp as opposed. Wish duranduran.no was around, i guess im not the only one missing them. Their archive was and still are impressive. The musically counterpart of Durandy..
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Post by andre005 on Nov 11, 2014 12:18:06 GMT -5
I do miss duraduran.no was a cool place to visit...lol
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trevgreg
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Post by trevgreg on Nov 11, 2014 12:38:39 GMT -5
I do miss duraduran.no was a cool place to visit...lol Klaus certainly did his part in uploading many rare demos and mixes, so I think that was appreciated along a lot of the fans out there. The only two issues I ever heard about him from other fans were that, for one, he asked for the initial Astronaut demos in 2003 from another fan specifically promising not to share them - then he went ahead and posted them on the site. Then, there was the issue where he put up a statement saying that he was upset with other fans sharing material he (supposedly) posted online originally, then went ahead and put tags onto future mp3s "copyrighting" them to him. I'm not sure if that last part had anything to do with him being taken down, but it would seem odd to me that he'd think that the demos/mixes being offered weren't going to be distributed elsewhere.
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gabby
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Post by gabby on Nov 11, 2014 13:17:54 GMT -5
Sorry pocketdemon I don't agree with your reasoning, but of course, this is my opinion and as valid as yours.
To my mind an official track is: 1) one that has either been created by the band e.g. demo, album version, alternative version. 2) one that has been commissioned by either the band or label, e.g. remix.
For #2) to be valid, DD or the label has to pay someone or ask someone to remix a track. Not all the DJ Service Mixes are of this type. As I understand it, the service provides DJs with multi-tracks for DJs to produce remixes for sets etc.
I suppose the grey area comes from a remixer who has been commissioned to do a track and then have the track rejected by the band for released on their singles. Still official but unreleased. I suppose some remixers find a home for it on CDs like DMC etc, thus where the "grey area" comes into it and things get confusing.
Record companies can often give tracks to compilations by mistake, this also happened to Missing Persons in the 90s, when the unreleased song I'm The One was released without the bands knowledge. No one can argue that this isn't an official track!
As for the ASWI, well....there is no remix here for a start, just editing and sampling. I seriously doubt whether these were ever been commissioned. Just my take on it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 13:20:35 GMT -5
Just to be clear, whilst it's nice that some people remember the site fondly, i wasn't attempting to reference dd.no at all with anything i've written - & i'm really not convinced that it's a helpful topic to discuss publically anymore.
Well, it's 5 1/2 years ago now &, whilst it obviously has changed what i am prepared to do for random people quite significantly (there's no point in not being mindful that DD have gotten their snazzy NY lawyers involved in the past of course), life moves on & there's no point in desperately holding on to stuff & ill feeling for the sake of it.
Don't get me wrong, it took some thinking about before putting any of the images up relating to the original sources as i didn't want to wrongly become a target, as i'm aware that Katy & Co are less than happy about the Unleashed bootleg - & it's why, along with searching my archives for info, i've made it as clear as i can that i've honestly played no part at all in the bootleg & have never shared any of the mixes that are on there with anyone, over the years that i've had them previously.
Anyway, just in case it triggered it, my commenting on the NR remix competition was simply about expanding the topic to try to see where other people thought the line was on things being 'proper' or not.
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