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Post by aftertherain on Oct 16, 2019 3:42:14 GMT -5
I'm not one who simply gives my opinion without looking deeper into the situation so I'll add how I see Nick R.
In the case of Nick's work with DD it is indeed incredible, unique, genius like and not only that but spiritual too, whether it be in the studio or live.
If you know DD, like many on this board do (& I guess it's ok if you don't "truly" know DD) yet the guy Mr NR has never been classically or otherwise piano/keyboard trained. Eg never been to a piano/keyboard lesson.
Knowing this makes it obvious that he attains something way more special (talent wise) than whichever of us here on this board or elsewhere complain n nag about whether he uses one hand or both while playing keyboard/piano.
He sure has done way more than the majority of people who also never have attended a piano/keyboard lesson IMO
And it's for this reason why there is way more "magic" in Nicks hands or no hands (including Mr NRs mind) than all of Disneyland.
Whatever ya been doing for the past 40 years NR....................keep doing it please !
Coz I for one, won't be complaining.
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 16, 2019 4:57:05 GMT -5
I agree and disagree with everybody here Nick is a genius songwriter. To him it's not how - it's how many! He doesn't care how he gets to the end result as long as the end result is worthy of Duran Duran (and many times it is!). To him it's about the idea; not the skills involved in creating that idea. And you know what - I really respect that about Nick. He doesn't care what others think about his playing, he doesn't try to be what he isn't, he just stays true to himself and tries to create the best damn music possible with Duran Duran. That is really refreshing and also down-to-earth; not a description you can always use when discussing Duran Duran. But just a minute Nick fans - don't come cheering and applauding and high-fiving me just yet - we know Nick has his weaknesses as well. Here's the thing - Nick is always going to be a genius songwriter. He is always going to have brilliant ideas and fantastic keyboard pieces in songs. That's not going to change. So my next question is - WHY HASN'T NICK VASTLY IMPROVED HIS PLAYING OVER THE YEARS? After all there are no disadvantages to becoming better at your chosen profession. If Nick took some time to become a better keyboard player he's not going to mysteriously start sucking at songwriting Yes we know he has improved. As Trevgreg said you can't be a music professional for over 40 years and not pick up a thing or two. But has Nick continued to improve and increase his knowledge relative to other musicians during that time? I'd suggest not. Five years ago Nile Rodgers tweeted the following : In writing a Duran today I said, "Let's change one chord to a G-7b6" and Nick played it instantly! *proud*
Now let's think about that for a minute. Nile was proud that a keyboard player of 35 years could play a certain chord instantly. Really? The fact Nile considered that any sort of milestone or even worth bragging about at all is actually a sad indictment on Nick's musical knowledge. I know that wasn't the intent of Nile's post, I know that he was genuinely proud, and I know that he loves Duran and Duran love him (well most of the time). But let's be honest - that is the sort of thing that should be EXPECTED of a professional musician, and not intended to make one impressed, surprised, or proud. If it were me - if I was being paid millions of dollars a year in an industry that ruthlessly and aggressively exposes charlatans from the real McCoy, then I would be practising my arse off and learning as often as I could. I may be quite driven, but when I do something I like to be the best. Certainly the best I can be. In fact if anybody wants to pay me a million dollars a year for the next five years I will become one of the greatest drummers in the world. I will practise all day and night and not stop until I have achieved my goal. I then promise to wear your shirts and mention you on Youtube as promotion and payback. Of course I will need enough money up-front to purchase a house with a sound-proof studio and a decent drum kit. Leave the rest to me. I accept that Nick is different to me. Nick doesn't need to be the best, he just needs to produce the best. As I said though - Nick is always going to be a brilliant songwriter and ideas man. That won't change if he spent more time learning musical theory and less time on the red carpet attending premieres. If anything the more he knows, potentially the GREATER his ideas can become. Yeah Nick is great. He's a very cool dude and generally an asset to Duran Duran. But with a different emphasis on musical skill I believe he could have been even greater
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oakey
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Post by oakey on Oct 16, 2019 7:09:13 GMT -5
This is exactly the point I want to make coolbarn. He has to rely on others; if a producer says play chord X, he had to show Nick how it’s done (eg Nile on Notorious).
Being self-taught is not an excuse. Nile also never took guitar lessons.
Not sure about Nick’s genius in songwriting too. Albums he was heavily involved in songwriting-wise (Medezzaland, The devils, TV mania) are very far removed from what I see as genius DD music. He also never made any solo efforts, unlike the rest of the band.
Still he is a driving force within DD, no doubt about that. But probably more on the bussiness and design side, and as an ideas man.
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 16, 2019 7:43:00 GMT -5
Being self-taught is not an excuse. Nile also never took guitar lessons. I find that unusual as well. If I'm an inexperienced teenager and a record company throws money at me and it becomes obvious that I am going to become a full-time musician, one of the things high up on my to-do list is employ a good teacher and learn how to read music!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 9:38:47 GMT -5
The Beatles couldn't read music and created many masterpieces of music, which paved the way for many future bands, for someone old school like John Barry it must have been frustrating, everyones knows the story of AFTAK and Nick view of a certain chord, but hey they still created a fantastic track that fused the elements of Bond with Duran. Duran Duran wouldn't be the same without Nick, as it must take many hours perfecting those creative Nick Rhodes sounds, and his set up would keep anyone busy with all the sequencers etc.
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Post by heskethbang on Oct 16, 2019 9:53:43 GMT -5
Almost all Durans' session heads are better players than Duran themselves. Ferrone, Jones, Hamilton etc.
I'd hazard that we don't love Duran because they are amazing players - if you want that sort of thing you've got Steely Dan and Snarky Puppy. We love them because they write a great song, delivered in a certain style. And there's a visual aspect to their work, whereas I've no idea what Steely Dan or Snarky Puppy even look like. It doesn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 10:03:46 GMT -5
Let's find and post some footage to prove that Nick actually can play.
The Devils - Cologne Live Music Hall feb 17 2003
I wish I could find this in better quality, but Nick is playing great here (in my view).
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 16, 2019 10:14:25 GMT -5
The Beatles couldn't read music and created many masterpieces of music, which paved the way for many future bands, for someone old school like John Barry it must have been frustrating, everyones knows the story of AFTAK and Nick view of a certain chord, but hey they still created a fantastic track that fused the elements of Bond with Duran. Oh for sure, I'm not saying that all great musicians can read music and have amazing music-theory knowledge, nor am I saying that anybody who can't read music is no good (I can't read music - but when somebody offers me one million dollars a year over the next five years you can bet I will be studying it like there's no tomorrow!). I'm just saying that if you have a chance to improve at your occupation, especially one where you're constantly being judged and skills count, then you probably should take it. Besides The Beatles had George Martin as their "fifth member" to help bring their amazing songwriting abilities to life. There is no way they would have been as successful or learned as much without him, and not every band is fortunate enough to have such a multi-faceted producer/arranger/composer/engineer/musician on board like they did
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trevgreg
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Post by trevgreg on Oct 16, 2019 10:19:08 GMT -5
Almost all Durans' session heads are better players than Duran themselves. Ferrone, Jones, Hamilton etc. I'd hazard that we don't love Duran because they are amazing players - if you want that sort of thing you've got Steely Dan and Snarky Puppy. We love them because they write a great song, delivered in a certain style. And there's a visual aspect to their work, whereas I've no idea what Steely Dan or Snarky Puppy even look like. It doesn't matter. A lot of this is how I look at it too. That Nile tweet was a great example of how far they've come at the same time as well. Beyond that, do I really need Nick to play like Yanni or Liberace with intense piano rolls and chord progressions? Not really. For one, it'd be a lot more removed from the music we tend to know and like them for. Just like how I don't really need to hear 10-minute long guitar solos played at hair raising speed from this band either. It's not what they do. There's plenty of examples of famous musicians going out and studying music beyond their usual practice and play situations. I think Flea from Red Hit Chili Peppers is one? But there's also those who never learned beyond what they were able to figure out by ear. Dave Grohl had a quote along those lines on the 90s, by saying he had no clue what the guitar chords he was playing at a certain point were called. But those guys were already plenty accomplished as songwriters and people who could play their instruments as it was. I don't think learning more stuff or expanding your physical capabilities necessarily hurts the cause really. But there can be a sort of genius in just enhancing the skills you have on your own and going with whatever sounds good. Particularly if you're in the business of writing good songs with other people and not having to be a super accomplished instrumentalist on your own. Nick already knows probably a hundred times more than most people do on how to make interesting sounds with keyboards, and play numerous chords and decent melody lines on them, and that alone is most of the battle anyway. I don't need him to play frantic three minute long piano parts to prove much of anything else to me. That's not DD anyway. And of course, the other part of it is that we just don't see him playing in his own time anyway, aside from a few second clips here and there. So for all we know, he might have plenty of more capabilities that we don't know about, aside from the fact that he just chooses not to show them off. Either at shows or when he's being filmed in the studio.
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Post by madoldlu on Oct 16, 2019 11:16:51 GMT -5
I agree for the most part that Nick's actual performances don't really matter. His genius is in the studio when crafting music and soundscapes. However I agree with CB that he SHOULD make efforts to learn proper music theory and learn as much about music and writing as possible. As far as we know, he has! I'm glad he did know what chord Nile wanted, so maybe that's a clue that he has hit the books so to speak.
He has incredible natural talent, no doubt. But it's in his best interest to seek out knowledge to learn more and develop that raw talent. As a designer/art director, and someone who studied art growing up, I know about having raw talent vs learned skill. I went to art schools all through Jr high, high school and college, and in Jr high, the teachers really beat some "bad habits" (mostly drawing in a comic book style) out of me and I became a much better artist because of it. I would have limited myself if I just kept drawing in that same style. Instead, I know and understand the fundamentals of drawing and painting, and I can choose to draw in the comic book style if I want. But I can also explore various different styles and techniques because I opened myself up to learning about more than just comic books.
Design is similar as well. Incidentally, I became a designer because of DD's album covers designed by Malcolm Garrett and Assorted Images! People may have some natural talent to color and layout, but there's so much more to design than just how things look or are arranged in a space. I wouldn't know any of that if I didn't study it. It bothers me to no end when I see something poorly designed out in the world because I can tell it was done by someone who perhaps knew how to use the design applications but obviously had no training.
Have you guys heard of the Dunning Kruger effect? This is the basic premise: "Coined in 1999 by then-Cornell psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the eponymous Dunning-Kruger Effect is a cognitive bias whereby people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their own incompetence."
Basically, you don't know what you don't know. I think that's the case with most things. Nick may not realize how much more there is to know about music because as far as he's concerned, he's a genius musician already!
But anyway, we're all making some huge assumptions here. As far as we know, Nick could have hired tutors years ago and continues to study. It could be as simple as not being able to play on command and perform! Some people can paint quickly and some people need months to complete a painting!
I listened to a podcast that talked about the Bar exam for lawyers, how that exam was biased to certain types of people who could think quickly because these tests are timed. They made a comparison to chess players who can play quickly vs those that take time to consider their next move. Something I never knew about chess: there are tournaments that cater to different speeds of play! There are speed tournaments and So they showed that someone who played quickly would likely loose if they were made to play against a slow player in a slow setting. And the converse was true as well: the slow player would loose to a fast player in a fast game tournament. The point about the Bar exam was that normally, lawyers don't need to think quickly in their profession. They have weeks and months to research and consider their arguments. So why impose such tight time constraints to the exam that will allow them to serve in a profession that never needs to be fast?
My roundabout point is that perhaps Nick simply can't play and perform on command, and that's ok. His musical talents are better served in the studio. Just like perhaps someone who can play piano or keyboards beautifully would not be able to craft the music and sounds that Nick can. He's just a different type of musical genius.
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