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Post by coolbarn on Oct 16, 2019 6:31:48 GMT -5
Seeing that we have threads about Nick's playing and live concerts and there's not much else to talk about, I want to share one of my favourite Youtube videos, ask some questions, and maybe generate some discussion . Anyway check out the following video : Obviously being a drummer myself I am a little bit biased towards that video. But I found it very interesting and I for one totally agree with Brandon Khoo - to me the instrumentation in the best songs SERVE THE SONG! So that is why, for me at least, I can handle Nick having basic keyboard skills provided he keeps making his parts work which he generally does. That is also why I believe LESS IS MORE - listen to a beautiful song like Save A Prayer or in fact most of Duran's earlier stuff and compare it to something like Want You More or Astronaut with all of their layers and sounds and tell me which sounds better, which choices SERVE THE SONG and alternatively which choices do the song a disservice? So keeping this in mind this thread is not just about Duran arguably serving the song better when they were starting out compared to recently where they are more experienced and theoretically "more proficient", but also involves Warren Cuccurullo. Check out the following quote from blurtonline.com/feature/blatant-and-pervasive-chicanery-warren-cuccurullo-2/ : What I did do all throughout my time in Duran Duran was make sure that anyone who ever tried to do what I did would find it ridiculously difficult.
AND If you take a song like “Electric Barbarella” — It’s impossible for anyone else to play [laughs]. First of all, they’d have to spend about 30 grand in gear, but just to get that shit together and to do that was—forget it! Go through any record that I did. The guitars are impossible, just on the tonal aspect, to duplicate.
My question is this, and keep in mind that I am a fan of Warren Cuccurullo as a guitarist (although not as much a songwriter) and loved having him in the band : Do you think that Warren intentionally trying to make sounds impossible to replicate for future guitarists truly SERVED THE SONG? Do you think this potentially could have impacted on Warren's guitar-riff and sound choices during a song and actually could have made them worse? What do you think guys? Did "technical wizardry" truly make Duran's music better? Or worse?
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trevgreg
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Post by trevgreg on Oct 16, 2019 9:22:17 GMT -5
With regards to Warren’s comment, I always took it as more of a slight ego thing rather than a general statement about songwriting in general. That’s not exactly an uncommon thing among talented people, of course. But even in that quote, he seems to admit that it was mostly from a tonal aspect as opposed to what he was actually playing, chord or note-wise. Other guitarists might not reflect his tone to a ‘t’… but most people are never really going to be able to do or try replicating it exactly anyway, $30k of gear or not. Heck, even people who try to re-create their material for a live show are probably never going to get it to sound like it does on the record! Not with all the amp settings, equalizers and compressors that mess with the final tracks that are mixed anyway.
In terms of Warren’s actual playing… aside from some of the more intricate lead parts he does (and which can be pretty hard to re-create for a lot of people), I don’t think a lot of his material was really super-complicated from a guitarist’s standpoint. Or at least to a point where it would make the song feel “too busy” or too complicated for ears to comprehend. A lot of his stuff was the type you could hear on any other pop-rock song in the world. Power chords on Playing With Uranium, four-note lead parts early on in Big Bang Generation, arpeggios on the easier-listening stuff, et. al. And in those cases, it seems to fit the song pretty well most of the time anyway. If it doesn’t, then some of that can probably be attributed to the mixing portion of a song, which can make it or break it for most people anyway. Simon admitted as much for Medazzaland, when he spoke somewhat highly of it in that Quieus interview, but admitted that many of the songs sounded “hard on your ears. It’s not lush.”
That kind of goes in hand for the “serving the song” aspect too. Truth be told, I tend to think most Duran tracks are spaced out okay in terms of how much instrumentation they actually contain. Particularly the more recent ones, which probably shows you why they paid Spike Stent some good money to mix their stuff in the first place! It’s not going to sound as busy as, say, some of Phil Spector’s records during the Wall of Sound era or some of the Oasis records from the 90’s (where Noel Gallagher literally recorded a few dozen guitar tracks for some songs at times). Play the title track to Astronaut alongside something like, say, D’ya Know What I Mean. It’s apples and oranges there, imo!
But even with the final versions of songs, you can find a few things that hint that a lot of the instrumentation as toned down a lot from what it was originally. When I first heard the instrumental to What Are the Chances?, I was surprised to hear a very solid lead part from John Frusciante being played during the second chorus. I thought to myself, “Hey, this sounds awesome! Why wasn’t this higher in the mix?” Then I really thought about it and went “Well, if it were, then it’d be competing with Simon’s vocal the whole time, and the song would be thrown off a bit as a result.” Plus, it probably didn’t contribute as much as the other lead lines that were chosen to be prominent in other parts of the song.
There was a similar part towards the end of Finest Hour too, where you can hear Andy playing a pretty prominent lead guitar part that’s buried in the mix a bit. It sounds cool (particularly if you play with the EQ on your computer or stereo to enhance it) and you figure you might want to hear it a lot louder, but then you think “Well, that’s where Simon’s reaching for the higher notes a bit in his big climax, so they’d be competing with each other.” Andy admitted in his book that this was a problem that would come up during the Reportage sessions as well.
And that’s the stuff we actually do get to hear in these songs. Imagine what was left on the cutting room floor, so to speak, or not even factored into whatever the final song was. A lot of those decisions come up in the mixing process and force you to make some tough decisions… you already have drums, guitars, bass and synths that sound cool and go along with each other. But what’s now going to be prominent and what’s lower in the mix? I read comments on Reddit about amateur musicians treating a choice between a cool synth part or cool guitar part like choosing which child they want to live. And after starting at a few knobs on my DAW program. myself, I can sympathize a bit. You need to make things fit and more often than not, you’re already going to come up with something that compromises a bit against some particular sound or thing you wanted to do anyway.
I can only imagine that being ten-fold in a band situation. But it’ll also depend on who’s in charge too, sure. When it was just Warren and Nick, it made sense that guitars and synths were the prominent parts. When Andy was in the band, it made sense that he didn’t sound like he was in AC/DC and contributed more of the rhythm parts to fit everything else. And when he left again, it made sense that synths got pushed to the forefront a bit more at times. Those voices are important and can also result in whatever the final product is.
In terms of Nick’s synths, I usually don’t find myself thinking he should only be playing minor or major chords on synth pad presets or not doing anything but that. On something like Save a Prayer, moving that modulation wheel or whatever it was to make that sound in the intro is one of the most interesting things he’s ever done. Or the various sequencers or arpeggiators he’s put into songs that added a bit of “umph” to it at times. I’d probably hate it if he didn’t keep exploring ways to go beyond just pressing three or one keys at a time, or trying out different equipment a few decades after he explored every possible preset on a Jupiter 8 synthesizer. Just like I would have hated it if Warren only played complicated lead parts on every song (or power chords, distorted effects, or whatever else).
I don’t necessarily have to like every bleep or bop that comes out in a song, but I wouldn’t want simplicity just for the sake of it either. Sometimes that might be fine. But every song you write is going to be different anyway, so I’d say just roll with what sounds okay and try coming up with a mix that sounds okay. I’ll either like it or not and see what the next one has to offer.
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 16, 2019 9:34:33 GMT -5
Great post Trevgreg, hoping for some more thoughtful insights from other posters as well
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Post by madoldlu on Oct 16, 2019 15:08:49 GMT -5
Warren's statement was definitely arrogant and I agree it might be more about the aesthetics of the sound rather than the notes themselves (although that might play a minor role in it too).
But the way I always thought about Warren's sound was that he (and Nick) were out to sound unique. I remember JT talking about W early on (maybe during Liberty) how unique his sound was, or that he was experimenting in such different sounds, or something to that effect. I took it to mean that JT valued sounding different from what other musical acts were all doing. Particularly with guitar sounds, I felt he, and the rest of the band, didn't want their guitars to sound like the guitars from any other bands out there. And I guess that's a valid point. It would certainly help in making DD stand out.
So I always thought that Warren went out of his way to distort and process his guitar sounds beyond the point of being recognizable as guitars! And that Nick would naturally encourage that experimentation. Personally I thought he went too far and I never fully got into his style of playing (with plenty of exceptions, of course).
And, taking it back to the topic at hand, I do think both Nick and Warren took it all to far where all the guitar distortions and Nick's bleeps and boops became a detriment to the music. And I feel like Nick's excessive noises carried through to Astronaut and to a slightly lesser degree in RCM to their detriment as well. So while perhaps their intent might have been to sound unique and different, it ultimately ended up weighing down and muddying up their songs.
I think finally with AYNIN everything got reeled back in to a proper balance. There's some hints of "too much Nick" in the PG album, but overall I think they all still serve the final songs.
I think JT has mentioned before that he thinks he was overdoing the bass in the first couple of albums, and that as he got older, he learned the value of economic playing--the less is more attitude. I think that he felt pulling back served the songs better. However, we all here not only appreciate, but revere his great, complex playing from the first couple of albums. I've come to learn that his Chic/Bernard Edwards-inspired playing is considered "disco/funk", so I guess JT thinks that playing in that manner also tends to make a song sound dated or too much in that specific genre. But to me, it's just great playing! Same with disco/funk guitar work. I never thought of it as specifically from that musical style. I just thought it was awesome guitar work when I heard it! For a while I thought music was devolving because musicians were jumping on the less is more train and I had a hard time finding music I enjoyed. I finally came to realize the playing I liked to listen to was considered disco and everyone was just moving away from that sound.
So anyway, I tend to think that JT's complicated playing does indeed serve the song, even if he himself would argue against that!
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Post by Dew on Oct 16, 2019 17:08:57 GMT -5
I don't think "technical wizardry" makes DD songs better, but experiments likes these and pushing boundaries are activities that keep talented artists engaged and happy. Sometimes the experiments work, sometimes not. I assume they're happy with the finished product. However, I rarely wish a DD song were "more" complex.
I think DD's less-successful work comes from lack of attention to songwriting, or members not being fully engaged with making music.
Agree that Astronaut suffers from too much stuff, but mostly because I didn't enjoy the musical direction and style.
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Post by intravenus on Oct 16, 2019 23:38:15 GMT -5
What do you think guys? Did "technical wizardry" truly make Duran's music better? I can't think of many examples where Warren's approach made the songs worse, but lots of cases where I couldn't imagine things working out better. The songs that spring to mind are All She Wants Is, Palomino, Hothead, Downtown, Sin Of The City, Electric Barbarella, Lady Xanax etc, all featuring heavily effected guitars that greatly benefit from Warren's creativity.
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Post by Dew on Oct 18, 2019 9:39:41 GMT -5
Agreed, and I add "Come Undone" What do you think guys? Did "technical wizardry" truly make Duran's music better? I can't think of many examples where Warren's approach made the songs worse, but lots of cases where I couldn't imagine things working out better. The songs that spring to mind are All She Wants Is, Palomino, Hothead, Downtown, Sin Of The City, Electric Barbarella, Lady Xanax etc, all featuring heavily effected guitars that greatly benefit from Warren's creativity.
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