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Post by andre005 on Oct 14, 2019 7:25:10 GMT -5
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oakey
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Post by oakey on Oct 14, 2019 9:06:51 GMT -5
Well...can he?
This is basically a 14-min talking-head video of a guy arguing that Nick *must* be able to play live because DD songs are all complicated and those say who he can't are not musicians. But he also states (somewhere around 5:10 min) that he was unable to find *any* footage of Nick *actually* playing the piano live. And exactly that is what this discussion is all about. Show me the evidence! (any will do in 40 years of live shows, of which from the last 10 years many YouTube videos exist, so we do not only have to rely on official video releases).
Then the guy in this video plays some nice (two-hand) piano parts of Planet earth and The Chauffeur. Don't know what he wants to demonstrate with that (well: that *he* is able to play these chords live), as the only thing Nick plays live on PE is the one-finger main melody, and on The Chauffeur he only plays the low piano key that you can hear at some points in the song (one finger, just a few notes). Most certainly not the rest (i.e., the actual piano chords, let alone the synths). Obviously nobody expects NR to play the sequenced parts of the DD songs (the main paino sequencer of the Chauffeur for instance), but it is argued in the video that he does play the main chords on most (which is not the case unfortunately for many songs). And the citicism that he just presses buttons is also not mine (as I do not think that he actually controls the sequences etc., that is probably done by his sound engineer on the right of the stage).
In contrast, there is plenty of footage showing that Nick *mimes* the keyboard parts during live shows. This includes the pre-recorded beginning of New Religion, most if not all keyboards on AVTAK (this song and the keyboard stabs in the beginning is addressed in the video, but the conclusion drawn is entirely different from what is obvious if you watch [and listen to] every live AVTAK that is out there, namely that Nick mimes to the backing track just to look interesting and all pop-starry), almost everything on Union of the Snake, Girl Panic etc.
The comments below the YT video are of the kind "I like them anyway", "it's not important whether he can play live", "I seem to remember footage of him playing the piano very well, but can't find the video", "I bet he plays better than 99% of the people who say he can't".
There are certainly people around who would make a worse president than Donald Trump. That does not make him a good president though...
Jean-Michel Jarre also got criticized for not playing any keyboard live and just miming (with a cardboard bell he 'plays' during Oxygene IV). But anyone who has seen the DVD 'Oxygene: Live In Your Living Room' knows he is able to play live, but just chooses not to during live shows. Same for Chris Lowe of Pet Shop Boys (the Blackpool Ballroom footage on the 'A live in pop' DVD).
So it's easy to demonstrate for NR that he can actually play live too, for instance in the Unplugged shows, but those shows also had John Jones playing the main keyboards and NR only doing some (very) basic stuff.
Mind you, NR is very important for DD: without him there would not have been a DD and had he left during their long career, the band would also no longer exist. But he has a role as the brain and mind, controlling the looks and the sound, but not necessarily in a hands-on way. In the studio he probably also gets a lot of assistance from the producer and keyboardists for hire, as well as his programmer, in playing.
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Post by coolbarn on Oct 14, 2019 12:44:12 GMT -5
I agree Oakey, that video does nothing at all to prove that Nick really can play. Probably more the opposite. But you know what - I don't care when it comes to Nick. It's his songwriting and ideas that matter, and when he gets it right he is incredible
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Post by madoldlu on Oct 14, 2019 13:13:18 GMT -5
That's such a great post, Oakey!
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Post by heskethbang on Oct 14, 2019 15:20:19 GMT -5
That's such a great post, Oakey! Nick is a soundscapist rather than a Keys player.
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Post by Kiffa on Oct 14, 2019 16:29:23 GMT -5
I have a confession to make: I am a keyboard player who cannot play. I've tried. I took lessons as a child. I minored in music in college, taking piano and music theory classes. Nothing has ever really stuck-- some of the basics, maybe, but not much more. I'd be useless to try to play anything in front of an audience that involved more than just the pressing of a few keys. In spite of that, I've managed to write/co-write a plethora of songs over the years-- some of them pretty decent, IIMSSM. My point is, I am Nick Rhodes. No, of course, I just said that to be silly. But I admire him, because in him I see what someone like me could accomplish if only they didn't let things like self-doubt and criticism hold them back. He's taken what he has, and made more out of it than just about anybody could. That in itself is fairly impressive. Is Nick a great musician? Not in the Rick Wakeman sense of the word. But that's not everything in the world of electronically-produced music. If you take nothing else away from this post, remember: I am Nick Rhodes.
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trevgreg
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Post by trevgreg on Oct 14, 2019 19:25:43 GMT -5
I have a confession to make: I am a keyboard player who cannot play. I've tried. I took lessons as a child. I minored in music in college, taking piano and music theory classes. Nothing has ever really stuck-- some of the basics, maybe, but not much more. I'd be useless to try to play anything in front of an audience that involved more than just the pressing of a few keys. In spite of that, I've managed to write/co-write a plethora of songs over the years-- some of them pretty decent, IIMSSM. My point is, I am Nick Rhodes. No, of course, I just said that to be silly. But I admire him, because in him I see what someone like me could accomplish if only they didn't let things like self-doubt and criticism hold them back. He's taken what he has, and made more out of it than just about anybody could. That in itself is fairly impressive. Is Nick a great musician? Not in the Rick Wakeman sense of the word. But that's not everything in the world of electronically-produced music. If you take nothing else away from this post, remember: I am Nick Rhodes. Exactly! I'm not a keyboard player at all. I had piano lessons for a few years as a child, but can't remember too much of it by memory nowadays. Occasionally, I could still get in front of one over the years and figure out a few things by ear. Like how to play the Mary Had a Little Lamb song they first had me learn as a kid. Or, on a more modern note, use my ear to play the lead synth lines from songs like Depeche Mode's Just Can't Get Enough or The Cars' Just What I Needed. But in recent years, I've bought a few audio plug-ins and a small keyboard that plugs into a computer, and I can make my way around creating okay synth soundscapes nowadays. I know how to do major and minor chords, and I can create halfway decent melodies by knowing where all the notes are and in what key. I also use a lot of MIDI inputting for things like that, and drawing the lines at the right places in the computer program and what not (I know Bernard Sumner from New Order once remarked on how he'd spend hours doing that in the studio and how boring it must've looked for someone looking at him, haha). But yeah. That's coming from someone who has spent maybe 0.001% of the time Nick has spent at a keyboard, or a MIDI device or a plain ol' piano. I don't doubt that the guy knows a heck of a lot more than most people when operating these instruments. Whether he plays much live (if at all) is one thing, but I don't have any doubts whatsoever that he can't actually play the thing. You can't be around these things for 40+ years and have no clue what you're doing, much less at a higher level of public scrutiny.
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oakey
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Post by oakey on Oct 15, 2019 1:18:34 GMT -5
I'm not a keyboard player at all. I had piano lessons for a few years as a child, but can't remember too much of it by memory nowadays. Occasionally, I could still get in front of one over the years and figure out a few things by ear. Like how to play the Mary Had a Little Lamb song they first had me learn as a kid. Or, on a more modern note, use my ear to play the lead synth lines from songs like Depeche Mode's Just Can't Get Enough or The Cars' Just What I Needed. You mean at the level at which Nick plays the piano line from We Are Family during Notorious? Listen for example to Osaka 2003 on the bootleg series... Nobody who has played the piano for 30 years would play it in that one-finger style, hesistantly adding a second finger for the 'chord' (and I do not mean to compare Nick to the Berlin Philharmonic piano player or Rick Wakeman, just regular people who took piano lessons and mastered the instrument, occasionally playing at home). To be honest, I think that basic level is also Nick's level. They grew up in the punk DIY era that extended into the synthpop movement. Nothing wrong with that. But nobody would argue that Sid Vicious is a great bass player, Madonna is a great singer, or Fletch is a great keyboardist. Even Bowie was poor at playing the guitar live. And he certainly practiced a lot during his career (playing more shows than DD). And they all had a hughe impact on the music industry. There are a few videos out there in which Nick actually plays live. For instance, on the Three to Get Ready video, they are seen rehearsing American Science, and Nick plays the lead chords....and makes a mistake. It was that tour that Nick actually played more chords than ever, but only on the songs in which Steve Ferrone does not wear headphones (as these were the prerecorded tracks, such as AVTAK). Just take a look at Working for the Skin Trade. The Odeon 1982 footage mentioned here is a great example of Nick *not* playing live, but miming New Religion, having a session player play the piano on Make me smile etc. He is a multi millionaire who can rely on producers, session players and others in the studio and live. And I believe he relied on Warren a lot musically during his tenure.
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trevgreg
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Post by trevgreg on Oct 15, 2019 7:03:34 GMT -5
I do vaguely remember that melody line from We Are Family. And while I guess you could argue it wasn't too complex, that's also just one particular example there. You could also argue that Warren playing the lead melody to Ordinary World wasn't too complex either since he was "just" playing those notes along the high e string of a guitar. Or that Andy was just playing a simple E major chord during most of Careless Memories, with John playing a fairly simple bass line with it as well that wasn't as frantic as his other songs. Not exactly the most complex stuff in the world, but sometimes simplicity is the best thing too, you know? I'm not sure if Sid Vicious is exactly a great example here either. Maybe back in the day when Nick leaned towards playing only the black keys of a keyboard, as Andy told the story in his book (and even then, I think he was a much better musician than Sid ever was, lol). But 2019 Nick? No chance. Like I said, you can't be surrounded by music for that long and be a "bad" musician. A complex or extremely talented one who's very hands on? Maybe or maybe not. But you can't be surrounded by those things for that long and not learn anything in the process. And there's plenty of examples from over the years that show he and the others have (learning minor 7th chords from Nile, playing a piano line he wrote for Falling Down, etc.). And sometimes, you don't need all the other stuff either. Madonna isn't Adele, but she can hold a note much better than most people can and writes some very solid songs. And Bowie was known more for his vocals and songwriting skills anyway, so it didn't really matter to me if he was hitting his barre chords in perfect 16th notes or not. If I wanted everything to be otherwise, I'd be listening to songs with guys shredding their guitar for 10+ minutes or changing chord progressions every two seconds. How boring! Give me something that allows me to breathe for a second, you know?
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rtm
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Post by rtm on Oct 16, 2019 3:16:56 GMT -5
Check out this video at 6:40 ...it's got Nick playing the piano and he is def using more then 1 finger I know its not Live but it def shows his technique...there is more shots of him playing the keys in this vid BTW
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