trevgreg
PAPER GOD
[Mo0:17]
Posts: 2,613
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Post by trevgreg on Sept 22, 2016 7:55:40 GMT -5
This interview was conducted 10 years after the split, more than enough time for the dust to settle don't you think? What does Warren do then? Tell me. He gets betrayed by his own band who f___ him down the river without a paddle. They turn his back on him even after throwing him overboard. You did read the interview? They didnt even want to see him. And you expect him not to 'blab'? Warren devoted 14 years of his life to this band. damn right he should say something! So, the band were professional in dispensing with Warren's services? What was it? An email or something I think? Duran were getting into the realms of being taken seriously as musicians. Experimenting and trying new avenues. Somebody on Facebook told me '"Warren forced the band to try out new sounds and rediscover themselves.." Yes, he did! Just to note on your email question… Warren claimed a few years afterward that he got word of the reunion via an express mail letter or something along those lines, then called up the others with Simon telling him that it was just the way it had to be or whatever. This actually changed from his original story during a Missing Persons interview in 2001, where he supposedly sat down with both Simon and Nick who then explained what was going on. When Warren asked if it was a “through the years” reunion or just the original 5, Simon then said that he probably shouldn’t be in it. And after that and the frustration settled, they worked out the deal for him and they announced the Missing Persons thing. As for not telling him from the get-go, well… maybe there was better ways of doing it. But even though Warren said in the Malins book that they didn’t know him if they feared his reaction to it, Simon recently made light of a yelling incident that was bad enough for him to leave the room after a San Diego show in 2000. So maybe things go both ways there with the truth somewhere in the middle? In terms of the 2003 backstage thing where he was turned away or whatever, something obviously happened in the day(s) prior to all that. Nick even said in a Japan interview during the first shows that they were all going to stop at his restaurant and, whatever ill feelings may have lingered, Warren still called up Simon to ask about showing up, and he replied in the affirmative. Warren seems to blame that on Andy a bit in this interview though, so who knows? Duran Duran were not perceived as a Classic Rock outfit with the media or music buyer, and yet here they were, bold as brass, recording better versions of legendary songs! Totally unexpected and they paid for it commercially. So the band then go in reverse after the brilliant Pop Trash to wanting to just sell records. Sold out baby, apart from the excellent AYNIN. To be fair, it did seem more like a touring thing from the get-go versus actually making and selling records (until Andy and Nick steered the ship that way). Maybe that’s more of a sell-out thing to some people, but who knows if they could have sustained playing the venues they were in the long run anyway. Seemed like Simon had one foot out the door as well.
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Post by medazzaboy1997 on Sept 22, 2016 12:12:21 GMT -5
My opinion - Warren was the best guitarist for Duran Duran. Without him, it is unfortunately just an ordinary pop band ... Where is the creativity and the arts as with TWA, Medazzaland and Pop Trash?
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AnNy73
A few more posts....
Andy is my baby
Posts: 36
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Post by AnNy73 on Sept 22, 2016 13:12:42 GMT -5
Cucurullo is RIDICULOUS e basta! Poveraccio!!!!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 13:21:06 GMT -5
I see Warren as a bitter person. He rips anyone and can't keep a secret.very very unprofessional.it's as if he created those duran songs ie Barberalla so nobody else could duplicate him...I know he rips RCM and Astronaut..wondering what he thought about AYNIN and Paper gods? I give him props as a great guitarist but you can't confide in him because you know he'll blab... And I'm not surprised he 'ripped' Astro and RCM. They're hardly classic albums...and neither is Liberty but I love Liberty! He is a musician! He sessioned for Frank Zappa. Look at the tracks on Thankyou. Do you think Duran could have carried that off without Warren and his guitar? I know it was a flop. The reason why it flopped was because GP weren't ready for it. They weren't expecting Duran to be able to come up with that kind of work rate. Duran Duran were not perceived as a Classic Rock outfit with the media or music buyer, and yet here they were, bold as brass, recording better versions of legendary songs! Totally unexpected and they paid for it commercially. So the band then go in reverse after the brilliant Pop Trash to wanting to just sell records. Sold out baby, apart from the excellent AYNIN. Can we remove ordinary world for a minute? The goodwill of that song is hardly enough to carry an acrimonious relationship indefinitely. And if you take it out of the picture what are you left with? We have the first three albums classic Duran Duran sound possibly taking a foot off the gas a little on seven and the ragged tiger, followed by a very sophisticated funky Nile Rodgers produced notorious and then a very mature sounding side 2 to big thing with a dance infused side one, and some great guitar work courtesy of a man who was, still at the time, a sessional musician for the band. And then he is made a member. Straightaway we get the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, liberty, which was commercial flop..... that in itself does not speak anything about quality of the music, but in the eyes of fans and what had gone before and it was a huge disappointment undoubtedly. Then everybody disappears off to warren's bedroom to record the wedding album. This album consisted of some standout stellar tracks which were not reflective of the rest of the album's material.....I have come to love it over time but again in the context of their older stuff it didn't hit me as immediately. John was reportedly on the verge of leaving the band at this time but the success of ordinary world reel him back in. However, following a very disappointing thank you the bands relationship seemed to fracture even more deeply. I read somewhere that JT accused warren of stealing his band. At their most commercial low they recorded medazzaland which is a very divisive album amongst fans, being a massive departure from the original duran Duran sound, particularly in the absence of a full-time base player. It is then followed by the largely to melancholy poptrash. It's hard to imagine that anyone would celebrate the legacy this is Duran Duran today if they had stopped after pop trash. And bar the wedding album, really every album that Warren was associated with was a commercial failure. At a point when they were earlier in their career, and had better but unrealised potential to shift more units. This is an increasing challenge for them. For a band that are very honest about their desire for success, looking at the Andy formula, irrespective of his talent, must've been very alluring. So skinburn you might belittle astronaut, red carpet massacre and paper gods but are they any worse than thank you, Liberty and pop trash? I love all DD albums, they are emotively intrinsically linked with my life and significant life events, but I do understand when a complete stranger says, this is horseshit, they might have a point LOL! I can't but help love them when it's in them I escaped, sought comfort and joy. I know you miss him skin but I don't think it's a case of Warren was wonderful and everything has been terrible since. They've just replaced warrens ego with Andy, the two timbas, (Ronson gets a pass), and well anyone they could get their hands on for PG. the one time they tried to go it alone, reportage, it gets rejected by Sony. When warren was fired a huge creative and egotistical gap was created that the band seem unable to fill by themselves anymore, that's how dominant a force he was, but I'm guessing they were suffocating under it. And the glorious warren is probably largely responsible for that. They were mentally stronger during notorious, without a warren / timbaland / mr Hudson figure.... or maybe it was drug fuelled confidence?! Is all you need is now is the wedding album equivalent for post millennial Duran Duran fans? ANYIN is certainly more cohesive, and was made without warren's mind blowing skill. It's very difficult to watch any band interviews from the period around medazzatrash era and Simon is in such a bad place, John is missing .....the price of having warren back with his great abilities and even greater ego is not worth it in my opinion. But he still shouldn't have been treated the way he was, he's fully entitled to vent, and he justifiably owns a very proud place in DD history and should be acknowledged accordingly. And that was a funny interview! Surely DD could have worked out a "through the years" tour, or maybe could now that time has passed. And somebody should a given Andy a slap, (being v polite here), who would blame DD for not wanting another full time guitar band member?
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Post by medazzaboy1997 on Sept 22, 2016 13:51:36 GMT -5
Is commercial failure indicator of quality? I appreciate that during the Warren era, the group looked at their work of non-commercial terms. There's a real effort to artistic and personal testimony mature men. I can certainly identify with more songs like SENM, PWU, CU, Michael you´ve got...,Lady Xanax than when in their fifties sings LNITC or Girl Panic. I cannot help, I fix the DD like art group and efforts at all costs to get to Top 40 I find embarrassing. Warren was perhaps too American, but he was loyal to DD, much more than Andy and the way he was fired did not deserve.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 14:06:58 GMT -5
Is commercial failure indicator of quality? I appreciate that during the Warren era, the group looked at their work of non-commercial terms. There's a real effort to artistic and personal testimony mature men. I can certainly identify with more songs like SENM, PWU, CU, Michael you´ve got...,Lady Xanax than when in their fifties sings LNITC or Girl Panic. I cannot help, I fix the DD like art group and efforts at all costs to get to Top 40 I find embarrassing. Warren was perhaps too American, but he was loyal to DD, much more than Andy and the way he was fired did not deserve. To quote from my previous post which was commercial flop..... that in itself does not speak anything about quality of the music, No, quality and sales are entirely independent. But the band want sales, I don't think they suddenly decided to hell with the popularity by which we measured our success and self worth, let's spend 15 + years indulging ourselves exclusively in the interest of being creative geniuses. You don't think they were chasing trends during medazzaland? It might have seemed a bit more grungy / indie but that sound was becoming mainstream anyway. They wanted success and album sales, it might be convenient retrospectively to rebrand it as them "being true to themselves" because it alleviates the uncomfortable truth that it was a flop commercially. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Mickey mouse label didn't help but pretending they didn't still hunger for success is highly disingenuous.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 14:08:25 GMT -5
Cherry, You told me you didn't have any posts in you this weekend?..you little fibber!! Mind you, it is still only Thursday! Lol I've just parked up my 44T tanker and put the kettle on. Then I shall read and digest your contribution. I love reading your posts because they're like short stories, similar to those of Susan Hill. Be back in 2 ticks (or shakes, depending on what I'm doing!) Lol what can I say, you stoked up a bit of passion, as I knew you would you (not so old) charmer haha! Oh and skin more than two shakes is a ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 17:25:50 GMT -5
Have transferred off the agreement train now!Can we remove ordinary world for a minute? The goodwill of that song is hardly enough to carry an acrimonious relationship indefinitely. And if you take it out of the picture what are you left with? For starters, another Top 10 worldwide hit in the form of Come Undone. Two respected cover songs in Perfect Day & White Lines, one of which has such enduring popularity with the general public that it is a concert mainstay and more well known than the original version. Two brilliant albums that failed to catch on commercially amidst lineup and label troubles. And that is just from the commercial/popularity standpoint which your post is about. I am ignoring the artistic value, as per your wishes. Let's compare that you what you have left from the post-reunion, taking away nothing: One worldwide hit, (Reach Up For The) Sunrise, which is neither respected nor adored by either the general public or long-term fans. I have said this before, but it bears repeating, ANY song that duran duran would have released at that juncture in time would have been some kind of hit, because they were not selling music, but rather the excitement over the reunion. Three subsequent albums that have failed to generate any standout hits, two of which are arguably their most artistically bankrupt and have alienated a significant portion of the fan base. The other of those albums is generally adored by fans, but has inspired an ambivalent reaction by the general public, failing to garner the sales figures the band wishes to achieve. The most recent of the albums did manage to place higher on the charts than previous efforts going back to 1993, but that was only because of changes in the record industry making it so a much lower threshold of sales gains you a much higher position on the charts. By all measures the Warren Cuccurullo era of duran duran was considerably more popular with the general public than the post-reunion era. It's not even close. Straightaway we get the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, liberty, which was commercial flop I'm not sure what album you are listening to, but I for one do not consider Liberty to be the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album released before 1992. I personally find both Big Thing and Seven And The Ragged Tiger to be more guitar-heavy overall. Sure there is First Impression, Downtown, and Read My Lips, but there is also Violence of Summer, Liberty, and Can You Deal With It which you have to mine pretty deep into the mix to hear the guitars. The remaining 5 songs are as balanced from a guitar perspective as anything released on prior albums excluding Notorious, which was guitar-deficient as far as I am concerned. As for the sales of Liberty, I believed it failed NOT because it was guitar driven, but rather because the marketing and single choices didn't highlight that duran duran was incorporating more of a guitar driven alt rock sound into their music. I was into heavy guitar music at the time and despite having grown up as a duran duran fan I did not buy Liberty, because I took one look at the cover and thought to myself, oh no... they are still stuck on the lame dancy pop sound I disliked from the prior two albums. There is no more cheesy and off-putting album cover in their history than that one and without the luxury of hearing the music beforehand and knowing it wasn't that, there was no reason to buy it. Regardless, if I had heard ANY of the commercially released versions of Violence Of Summer that would have turned me off enough that I wanted no part of that music. Again, Violence Of Summer is decidedly NOT the most guitar heavy Duran Duran music. It is really the opposite. What we can say definitively is that the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, was The Wedding Album. There is no argument there. Even if one thinks Liberty was the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, it is clear that the Wedding Album surpassed it in heaviness. As you noted it also surpassed it and all other duran duran album post the classic lineup in sales and popularity. This fact was, and remains to this day, something that is unheard of for bands that had their initial success in the early 80s. This is especially noteworthy considering the view of the duran duran by the general public, as a pretty-boy band that owed at least some of their success to good looks and glossy videos timed to perfection with the ascension of Mtv as a global player in music promotion. Had this heavier turn not occurred neither of us would be on this board right now. It would had died a slow death, because nostalgia acts don't have such wide ranging and engaged fan bases. I, for one, would have NEVER gotten back into duran duran without the commercially unsuccessful, but artistically brilliant, Medazzaland & Pop Trash albums being created. So even though I am in the minority here, I am a contributor along with a few others of like mind that keeps the discussion going. Without Warren and ALL of his contributions from 1988 - 2001, you would have a bunch of glad-handing Andres (Sorry, mate) as the only ones frequenting the board. I've seen that on other boards and what ends up happening is nothing, literally. No posts. No passion. Just blind faith. I read somewhere that JT accused warren of stealing his band. At their most commercial low they recorded medazzaland which is a very divisive album amongst fans, being a massive departure from the original duran Duran sound, particularly in the absence of a full-time base player. It is then followed by the largely to melancholy poptrash. Perhaps you feel this way, but please do not speak for me. I, personally, consider Medazzaland to be one of the most emblematic duran duran albums of all time. No other album so deftly captured the spirit and style of RIO while offering a re-energized and updated sound. In many ways I feel that Medazzaland is the culmination of a band learning who they are and how can they best create a collection of songs that delivers on all of their potential as a band. The album itself was NOT released in Europe (which includes the UK) so we can not fairly assess what it would have done commercially with even adequate label promotion, never mind good promo. As for John Taylor's comments, I am not one to put much stock in what people have to say when they are heavily under the influence of drugs, but my personal opinion is that he is the driving force behind the need for the band to be popular with the general public and to hit certain sales figures. I think it is this need for adulation that drove him to do the Neurotic Outsiders project just as bands like The Offspring & Green Day were becoming extremely popular. At the time he also released a bunch of solo albums that demonstrated some of the worst song writing ability ever committed to tape. I love duran duran, but even I can't manage to get through The Japan Album. So if we must put it in terms of John's Band vs. Warren's Band, I would see it as Warren saving the band from the terrible decisions of a base player who thinks songs like Drug (It's Just a State of Mind) is an important single worthy song. I think the la-la-la song choices after John rejoined and Warren was fired may have a lot to do with his sensibilities and shortcomings as a songwriter. It's hard to imagine that anyone would celebrate the legacy this is Duran Duran today if they had stopped after pop trash. And bar the wedding album, really every album that Warren was associated with was a commercial failure. At a point when they were earlier in their career, and had better but unrealised potential to shift more units. This is an increasing challenge for them. For a band that are very honest about their desire for success, looking at the Andy formula, irrespective of his talent, must've been very alluring. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I for one, would celebrate the legacy of duran duran had it ended with Pop Trash. Not to say that I wouldn't have preferred them keeping on creating music that built upon that legacy. In my mind three out of the four albums post Warren's firing have done nothing but tarnish duran duran's reputation and their legacy. If we ever get past this era where placating the whims of pop trends is the standard-bearer for songwriting, then Astronaut, Red Carpet Massacre, and Paper Gods will be looked at as huge embarrassments by the fans that continue on. Strangely, the most divisive of these albums is the one I consider the best. For all it's awful club sounds and Timbaland, Red Carpet Massacre still remains as the album from those 3 that contains the most organic, touching, interesting music. It is about 50% awesome duran duran that we had come to know and love pre-reunion and 50% placating pop trends garbage. So from that perspective you can understand why and how Paper Gods is such a deflating mess. We have the terrible Astronaut album, followed by a small improvement in the form of Red Carpet Massacre, and then a huge jump to once again creating artful and wonderful music in the form of All You Need Is Now. Sadly, this is followed up by Paper Gods, which takes the ethos of the 50% of Red Carpet Massacre that was garbage and makes it the overriding influence of the entire album, or at least the 12 tracks on the main album. So skinburn you might belittle astronaut, red carpet massacre and paper gods but are they any worse than thank you, Liberty and pop trash? I'll answer on his behalf: FUCCK YEAH THEY ARE!!!I still listen to all of Pop Trash and most of Liberty, but I can't listen to more than one or two of the songs off the 12 released on Astronaut in most territories and more than four or five on Red Carpet Massacre. I am still trying to give Paper Gods extra listens as the newest release, but even the songs I liked initially are fading for me. There is no question that Liberty & Pop Trash are significantly stronger albums because, if nothing else, they were honest artistic efforts which always tend to have more enduring love than albums created with the sole intent of capitalizing on a popular trend. the price of having warren back with his great abilities and even greater ego is not worth it in my opinion. But he still shouldn't have been treated the way he was, he's fully entitled to vent, and he justifiably owns a very proud place in DD history and should be acknowledged accordingly. I am personally on record saying that, based on the strength of the material on All You Need Is Now, I would prefer Dom be made a full member with a 1/5th vote in song decisions. I think there is too much bad blood between Simon & Warren and I also think that John Taylor's need for adulation is incongruent with the type of songwriting Warren would prefer. That said, I think a Warren reunion at this point would actually garner interest and provide a (smaller than Astronaut) sales bump for the subsequent tour and album. If anything this thread (and a couple of others) have reinvigorated my love for what duran duran did between 1988 and 2001 and even given me more appreciation for Thank You. Frankly, I am tired of John dragging the band into follow the trend mode and I know Warren wouldn't stand for that bullshit. Warren may have an outsized ego, but the bigger problem is that it is rivaled by John Taylor's ego and need to be popular with the kids. If we are destined to get more Last Night In The Citys there there is no price too big to get Warren back. If it means the band ends, at least it will be on a high. That is better than fizzling out on the diminishing returns of more guests and trend hopping, to the point that duran duran is unrecognizable as a band and the music is unlistenable to anyone who truly cares about the artistry of good songwriting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 19:01:51 GMT -5
Have transferred off the agreement train now!Can we remove ordinary world for a minute? The goodwill of that song is hardly enough to carry an acrimonious relationship indefinitely. And if you take it out of the picture what are you left with? For starters, another Top 10 worldwide hit in the form of Come Undone. Two respected cover songs in Perfect Day & White Lines, one of which has such enduring popularity with the general public that it is a concert mainstay and more well known than the original version. Two brilliant albums that failed to catch on commercially amidst lineup and label troubles. And that is just from the commercial/popularity standpoint which your post is about. I am ignoring the artistic value, as per your wishes. Let's compare that you what you have left from the post-reunion, taking away nothing: One worldwide hit, (Reach Up For The) Sunrise, which is neither respected nor adored by either the general public or long-term fans. I have said this before, but it bears repeating, ANY song that duran duran would have released at that juncture in time would have been some kind of hit, because they were not selling music, but rather the excitement over the reunion. Three subsequent albums that have failed to generate any standout hits, two of which are arguably their most artistically bankrupt and have alienated a significant portion of the fan base. The other of those albums is generally adored by fans, but has inspired an ambivalent reaction by the general public, failing to garner the sales figures the band wishes to achieve. The most recent of the albums did manage to place higher on the charts than previous efforts going back to 1993, but that was only because of changes in the record industry making it so a much lower threshold of sales gains you a much higher position on the charts. By all measures the Warren Cuccurullo era of duran duran was considerably more popular with the general public than the post-reunion era. It's not even close. Straightaway we get the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, liberty, which was commercial flop I'm not sure what album you are listening to, but I for one do not consider Liberty to be the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album released before 1992. I personally find both Big Thing and Seven And The Ragged Tiger to be more guitar-heavy overall. Sure there is First Impression, Downtown, and Read My Lips, but there is also Violence of Summer, Liberty, and Can You Deal With It which you have to mine pretty deep into the mix to hear the guitars. The remaining 5 songs are as balanced from a guitar perspective as anything released on prior albums excluding Notorious, which was guitar-deficient as far as I am concerned. As for the sales of Liberty, I believed it failed NOT because it was guitar driven, but rather because the marketing and single choices didn't highlight that duran duran was incorporating more of a guitar driven alt rock sound into their music. I was into heavy guitar music at the time and despite having grown up as a duran duran fan I did not buy Liberty, because I took one look at the cover and thought to myself, oh no... they are still stuck on the lame dancy pop sound I disliked from the prior two albums. There is no more cheesy and off-putting album cover in their history than that one and without the luxury of hearing the music beforehand and knowing it wasn't that, there was no reason to buy it. Regardless, if I had heard ANY of the commercially released versions of Violence Of Summer that would have turned me off enough that I wanted no part of that music. Again, Violence Of Summer is decidedly NOT the most guitar heavy Duran Duran music. It is really the opposite. What we can say definitively is that the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, was The Wedding Album. There is no argument there. Even if one thinks Liberty was the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, it is clear that the Wedding Album surpassed it in heaviness. As you noted it also surpassed it and all other duran duran album post the classic lineup in sales and popularity. This fact was, and remains to this day, something that is unheard of for bands that had their initial success in the early 80s. This is especially noteworthy considering the view of the duran duran by the general public, as a pretty-boy band that owed at least some of their success to good looks and glossy videos timed to perfection with the ascension of Mtv as a global player in music promotion. Had this heavier turn not occurred neither of us would be on this board right now. It would had died a slow death, because nostalgia acts don't have such wide ranging and engaged fan bases. I, for one, would have NEVER gotten back into duran duran without the commercially unsuccessful, but artistically brilliant, Medazzaland & Pop Trash albums being created. So even though I am in the minority here, I am a contributor along with a few others of like mind that keeps the discussion going. Without Warren and ALL of his contributions from 1988 - 2001, you would have a bunch of glad-handing Andres (Sorry, mate) as the only ones frequenting the board. I've seen that on other boards and what ends up happening is nothing, literally. No posts. No passion. Just blind faith. I read somewhere that JT accused warren of stealing his band. At their most commercial low they recorded medazzaland which is a very divisive album amongst fans, being a massive departure from the original duran Duran sound, particularly in the absence of a full-time base player. It is then followed by the largely to melancholy poptrash. Perhaps you feel this way, but please do not speak for me. I, personally, consider Medazzaland to be one of the most emblematic duran duran albums of all time. No other album so deftly captured the spirit and style of RIO while offering a re-energized and updated sound. In many ways I feel that Medazzaland is the culmination of a band learning who they are and how can they best create a collection of songs that delivers on all of their potential as a band. The album itself was NOT released in Europe (which includes the UK) so we can not fairly assess what it would have done commercially with even adequate label promotion, never mind good promo. As for John Taylor's comments, I am not one to put much stock in what people have to say when they are heavily under the influence of drugs, but my personal opinion is that he is the driving force behind the need for the band to be popular with the general public and to hit certain sales figures. I think it is this need for adulation that drove him to do the Neurotic Outsiders project just as bands like The Offspring & Green Day were becoming extremely popular. At the time he also released a bunch of solo albums that demonstrated some of the worst song writing ability ever committed to tape. I love duran duran, but even I can't manage to get through The Japan Album. So if we must put it in terms of John's Band vs. Warren's Band, I would see it as Warren saving the band from the terrible decisions of a base player who thinks songs like Drug (It's Just a State of Mind) is an important single worthy song. I think the la-la-la song choices after John rejoined and Warren was fired may have a lot to do with his sensibilities and shortcomings as a songwriter. It's hard to imagine that anyone would celebrate the legacy this is Duran Duran today if they had stopped after pop trash. And bar the wedding album, really every album that Warren was associated with was a commercial failure. At a point when they were earlier in their career, and had better but unrealised potential to shift more units. This is an increasing challenge for them. For a band that are very honest about their desire for success, looking at the Andy formula, irrespective of his talent, must've been very alluring. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I for one, would celebrate the legacy of duran duran had it ended with Pop Trash. Not to say that I wouldn't have preferred them keeping on creating music that built upon that legacy. In my mind three out of the four albums post Warren's firing have done nothing but tarnish duran duran's reputation and their legacy. If we ever get past this era where placating the whims of pop trends is the standard-bearer for songwriting, then Astronaut, Red Carpet Massacre, and Paper Gods will be looked at as huge embarrassments by the fans that continue on. Strangely, the most divisive of these albums is the one I consider the best. For all it's awful club sounds and Timbaland, Red Carpet Massacre still remains as the album from those 3 that contains the most organic, touching, interesting music. It is about 50% awesome duran duran that we had come to know and love per-reunion and 50% placating pop trends garbage. So from that perspective you can understand why and how Paper Gods is such a deflating mess. We have the terrible Astronaut album, followed by a small improvement in the form of Red Carpet Massacre, and then a huge jump to once again creating artful and wonderful music in the form of All You Need Is Now. Sadly, this is followed up by Paper Gods, which takes the ethos of the 50% of Red Carpet Massacre that was garbage and makes it the overide influence of the entire album, or at least the 12 tracks on the main album. So skinburn you might belittle astronaut, red carpet massacre and paper gods but are they any worse than thank you, Liberty and pop trash? I'll answer on his behalf: FUCCK YEAH THEY ARE!!!I still listen to all of Pop Trash and most of Liberty, but I can't listen to more than one or two of the songs off the 12 released on Astronaut in most territories and more than four or five on Red Carpet Massacre. I am still trying to give Paper Gods extra listens as the newest release, but even the songs I liked initially are fading for me. There is no question that Liberty & Pop Trash are significantly stronger albums because, if nothing else, they were honest artistic efforts which always tend to have more enduring love than albums created with the sole intent of capitalizing on a popular trend. the price of having warren back with his great abilities and even greater ego is not worth it in my opinion. But he still shouldn't have been treated the way he was, he's fully entitled to vent, and he justifiably owns a very proud place in DD history and should be acknowledged accordingly. I am personally on record saying that, based on the strength of the material on All You Need Is Now, I would prefer Dom be made a full member with a 1/5th vote in song decisions. I think there is too much bad blood between Simon & Warren and I also think that John Taylor's need for adulation is incongruent with the type of song writing Warren would prefer. That said, I think a Warren reunion at this point would actually garner interest and provide a (smaller than Astronaut) sales bump for the subsequent tour and album. If anything this thread (and a couple of others) have reinvigorated my love for what duran duran did between 1988 and 2001 and even given me more appreciation for Thank You. Frankly, I am tired of John dragging the band into follow the trend mode and I know Warren wouldn't stand for that bullshit. Warren may have an outsized ego, but the bigger problem is that it is rivaled by John Taylor's ego and need to be popular with the kids. If we are destined to get more Last Night In The Citys there there is no price too big to get Warren back. If it means the band ends, at least it will be on a high. That is better than fizzling out on the diminishing returns of more guests and trend hopping, to the point that duran duran is unrecognizable as a band and the music is unlistenable to anyone who truly cares about the artistry of good songwriting. Crikey diatribien some of us need to be up early! Hehe ....That got you going though! First off I can't do these split quotes but I've put anything you said in inverted commas. Right....perfect day and white lines by DD are not more popular than the originals in my part of the world. But if they've found (very) localised success ...great! We have just had an entire thread slating thank you. Admittedly diatribien you were not amongst the detractors, but you are in the minority, I don't imagine that particularly bothers you but as it is, that's how it appears, even here amongst the diehards, unless my maths is worse than I thought ( a possibility!). Not overwhelmed by you summarising my lengthy (sorry) post into one line. It's not about valuing popularity over artistry but making the point that it's disingenuous to pretend they exclusively value one over the other. Both are important. It has been discussed at length that the song choices for Astro, let alone the single choices from that album, were probably not the best. "I have said this before, but it bears repeating" I fell in love with a girl once too... Umm sorry wrong board! FYI: U.K. Sunrise no 5 what happens tomorrow no 11... Again however I stress they were 10 years older, this does affect the chances of success, and which somewhat mitigates the reappearance if Andy Taylor whom, dare I say it, hadn't weathered as well as the rest of the band members appearance wise...Mighta dampened the ardour of those premenopausal female fans! "Three subsequent albums that have failed to generate any standout hits, two of which are arguably their most artistically bankrupt and have alienated a significant portion of the fan base" It's certainly an argument diatribien....for all its faults RCM is the best album lyrically since big thing in my humble opinion. AND THEY ARE 10 YEARS OLDER!! ANYIN is adored by fans but failed to gain the sales...well that's a label thing isn't it? Similar to your beloved medazzaland "your logo is ears but none if you seem to have any"..... The most recent album charted well because everybody bought it concurrently. It's probably competing against a greater volume of music than ever, and streaming counts, not just for Duran but for everybody. So yes a lower threshold of physical sales but unless people are listening repeatedly with the sound on mute overnight....okay slight confession LOL!.....this argument doesn't hold water. All artists are subject to the same mechanism in terms of chart position. Perhaps you only value people who go out and buy the physical media and that is an argument in itself, but one can't deny that music does reach fans via streaming. In the case of PG, I have the physical media but have listened tenfold more times via Spotify because it's convenient....I can recommend a good antacid. "By all measures the Warren Cuccurullo era of duran duran was considerably more popular with the general public than the post-reunion era. It's not even close". I seriously doubt live concert sales, which garner most of their revenue, concur with this statement. "I'm not sure what album you are listening to, but I for one do not consider Liberty to be the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album released before 1992. " Is it qualified if Simon agrees with me?.....though I'm not sure that holds any water either if he's as willing to throw me under a bus as the penultimate album ...insert here... news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1309&dat=19900725&id=rllPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MZADAAAAIBAJ&pg=6770,2721359&hl=en Actually hang on... You agree too, you just hide it well.... "Because the marketing and single choices didn't highlight that duran duran was incorporating more of a guitar driven alt rock sound into their music". No hang on you've changed your mind.. "What we can say definitively is that the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, was The Wedding Album" Diatribien it's great you and I have youth on our side hahaha but for most people here they discovered liberty first, ergo the Wedding album wasn't a consideration. And whilst we may share a generation we are very different DD fans. I am atypically of that early DD era. "Had this heavier turn not occurred neither of us would be on this board right now.".... Eh no! "Without Warren and ALL of his contributions from 1988 - 2001, you would have a bunch of glad-handing Andres (Sorry, mate) as the only ones frequenting the board".....and thank god you're here keeping me up tapping on my phone long after I shoulda hit the hay! Serious (ly), I Iike it to be serious, but just because you prefer the more obscure stuff exclusively doesn't convey some sort of musical superiority. I don't value a yes man, but a critical thinker of course, of which you are one, albeit a teensy bit glass entirely empty at present. But yes, agreed, the blind faith doesn't do it for me either. I didn't say I didn't value medazzaland in my post if you look at my wording, though undoubtedly you know me of old, it ain't my favourite. But I can tell you from being on social media daz is divisive, as in, it divides. That's not a comment on quality or the fact that some DD fans who I have great respect and affection for, have it in their top 2! It's a fair point in relation to the non European release, i really wish I had heard it with 1997 ears. JT has been extremely open about his drug issues. I really think that's a pretty easy stuck to grab and beat him with. Warren, if he was using steroids may have made him extremely aggressive to be around... Total speculation I know,but I'm just establishing that we only have one side of the story. I for one have grown to really appreciate drug, esp the latter half of the song, without any cocaine, but what do I know? In terms of John going off to another band... Look he was 37?! Trust me, I'm on the cusp of doing something fairly radical work wise...I get it! That's an age where you start to question your relationships with people, work and yourself and if they aren't giving back to you??.... Okay maybe later in life for some, but he had been through rehab and the self awareness that comes with that process must be life changing. "There is no question that Liberty & Pop Trash are significantly stronger albums because, if nothing else, they were honest artistic efforts which always tend to have more enduring love than albums created with the sole intent of capitalizing on a popular trend". To quote the white stripes again haha.., aw look, I don't but for a split second doubt they ever said "lets make the album we want and see if people will buy it". There's always been a level of calculation with DD, particularly with the highly revered ANYIN. A little cost benefit analysis that pre-emptively goes into every DD record. "If we are destined to get more Last Night In The Citys there there is no price too big to get Warren back"......okay okay lol mitigating circumstances I'll have him back under these conditions! Right...bed!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 19:06:04 GMT -5
Can we remove ordinary world for a minute? The goodwill of that song is hardly enough to carry an acrimonious relationship indefinitely. And if you take it out of the picture what are you left with? We have the first three albums classic Duran Duran sound possibly taking a foot off the gas a little on seven and the ragged tiger, followed by a very sophisticated funky Nile Rodgers produced notorious and then a very mature sounding side 2 to big thing with a dance infused side one, and some great guitar work courtesy of a man who was, still at the time, a sessional musician for the band. And then he is made a member. Straightaway we get the most guitar heavy Duran Duran album to date, liberty, which was commercial flop..... that in itself does not speak anything about quality of the music, but in the eyes of fans and what had gone before and it was a huge disappointment undoubtedly. Then everybody disappears off to warren's bedroom to record the wedding album. This album consisted of some standout stellar tracks which were not reflective of the rest of the album's material.....I have come to love it over time but again in the context of their older stuff it didn't hit me as immediately. John was reportedly on the verge of leaving the band at this time but the success of ordinary world reel him back in. However, following a very disappointing thank you the bands relationship seemed to fracture even more deeply. I read somewhere that JT accused warren of stealing his band. At their most commercial low they recorded medazzaland which is a very divisive album amongst fans, being a massive departure from the original duran Duran sound, particularly in the absence of a full-time base player. It is then followed by the largely to melancholy poptrash. It's hard to imagine that anyone would celebrate the legacy this is Duran Duran today if they had stopped after pop trash. And bar the wedding album, really every album that Warren was associated with was a commercial failure. At a point when they were earlier in their career, and had better but unrealised potential to shift more units. This is an increasing challenge for them. For a band that are very honest about their desire for success, looking at the Andy formula, irrespective of his talent, must've been very alluring. So skinburn you might belittle astronaut, red carpet massacre and paper gods but are they any worse than thank you, Liberty and pop trash? I love all DD albums, they are emotively intrinsically linked with my life and significant life events, but I do understand when a complete stranger says, this is horseshit, they might have a point LOL! I can't but help love them when it's in them I escaped, sought comfort and joy. I know you miss him skin but I don't think it's a case of Warren was wonderful and everything has been terrible since. They've just replaced warrens ego with Andy, the two timbas, (Ronson gets a pass), and well anyone they could get their hands on for PG. the one time they tried to go it alone, reportage, it gets rejected by Sony. When warren was fired a huge creative and egotistical gap was created that the band seem unable to fill by themselves anymore, that's how dominant a force he was, but I'm guessing they were suffocating under it. And the glorious warren is probably largely responsible for that. They were mentally stronger during notorious, without a warren / timbaland / mr Hudson figure.... or maybe it was drug fuelled confidence?! Is all you need is now is the wedding album equivalent for post millennial Duran Duran fans? ANYIN is certainly more cohesive, and was made without warren's mind blowing skill. It's very difficult to watch any band interviews from the period around medazzatrash era and Simon is in such a bad place, John is missing .....the price of having warren back with his great abilities and even greater ego is not worth it in my opinion. But he still shouldn't have been treated the way he was, he's fully entitled to vent, and he justifiably owns a very proud place in DD history and should be acknowledged accordingly. And that was a funny interview! Surely DD could have worked out a "through the years" tour, or maybe could now that time has passed. And somebody should a given Andy a slap, (being v polite here), who would blame DD for not wanting another full time guitar band member? Hey Cherry, I didn't bring Ordinary World into this. You did. However, now that you have (mentioned it) nobody can ignore the impact that masterpiece created. Those types of songs don't just turn up on a No.7 bus and get forgotten a year later. It's a rare thing for any artist to produce a hit of that kind of callibre. It takes a special talent to be able to pull out an ace card on every album released. Even Bowie failed on the 'Tonight' album. There was no obvious stand out hit single on it. It's so difficult for anyone to follow up a hit album with another hit album and so I'm thinking was it really a surprise that 'Thankyou' bombed? Yes, I can see your point about the commercial success (or lack of) of albums when Warren was part of the line up. BUT, the only reason Astronaut did fairly well was because of the 'original 5' frenzy. The label were targeting the thirty pluses amongst us with a view to rekindling that love affair and teenage adulation. After all, the eighties weren't far behind in 2003. I can honestly say I was shocked when I heard that Roger was rejoining. I thought he'd really had enough and wanted to live out his days on his farm in the Cotswolds. We've covered this ground before really, You've got me wrong about Astronaut though. You are guilty of putting words into my mouth. I didn't belittle Astronaut. I just said it wasn't a classic. There's a difference. I was really pleased with 'Sunrise' and 'Tomorrow' single releases. They did get that right and the charts proved as much. But the rest is an average album at best. To go from 'Poptrash' (which was a strange album but not as strange as Medazzaland) to Astronaut was just a real shock. I can understand the desire for success and I had mixed feelings over the reunion. I didn't know back then how Warren was ousted. When I did find out several years back now I was very angry but then I thought well, mores the point how the f___ is Warren feeling right now? But wanting success now? Simon was happy that the album made Top 10, no matter it exited the charts 2 weeks later. They are showing themselves as sellouts. They have to be realists. The band will never make a top 10 hit ever again. So why bother trying? Better to be rembered as a band who simply enjoyed being themselves, writing songs that SUITED them and having a f-ing management who knew what they were doing. Anyway, my eyelids are drooping. I'll come back to this tomorrow!! Lol Me too skin. ...hope you aren't behind the wheel. And apols for putting words in your mouth. No doubt you'll put me right tomorrow
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