amiestilo
NOTORIOUS
'Cos I've got my own way
Posts: 1,176
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Post by amiestilo on Feb 3, 2012 16:41:00 GMT -5
Somehow I still can feel a bit of anger and aggression toward those who stash some truly scarce material. Why? We all have the right to do whatever we want with what is in our possession. No? Just curious... From this prospective Nick (or any other current or past band member) should feel very bad as they definitely has tons of stuff we never hear. I'd rather take part in a different topic "Rarest item you've got" Would make more sense.
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Post by parisina on Feb 3, 2012 16:52:13 GMT -5
Not really the same perspective. The band actually are the creators of the material, they have a right to ownership over it and to decide they don't want to share it. A fan who has something is no better than a fan who doesn't have it and had nothing at all to do with the creation of the material they are "hoarding" so to speak.
Naturally people can do whatever they want but fandom itself would probably be a much friendlier, more open, more generous place if people shared things, a lot less "clique-ish" and such, which is something I've seen a lot of long term fandom members complain about both in reading old posts here and reading various blogs and things. I'm relatively new so it's not something I've experienced so much yet but it's sad to think about. It's just weird to hear because I really can't think of any other fandom I've been around where most fans weren't absolutely eager to share anything they'd come across, especially songs.
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errbt
PAPER GOD
"untalented guitarist"
Posts: 1,726
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Post by errbt on Feb 3, 2012 17:12:17 GMT -5
Somehow I still can feel a bit of anger and aggression toward those who stash some truly scarce material. Why? We all have the right to do whatever we want with what is in our possession. No? Just curious... From this prospective Nick (or any other current or past band member) should feel very bad as they definitely has tons of stuff we never hear. I'd rather take part in a different topic "Rarest item you've got" Would make more sense. Again my only question would be: do you ever examine just why you feel the need to "stash" something in the first place? Not really the same perspective. The band actually are the creators of the material, they have a right to ownership over it and to decide they don't want to share it. A fan who has something is no better than a fan who doesn't have it and had nothing at all to do with the creation of the material they are "hoarding" so to speak. Naturally people can do whatever they want but fandom itself would probably be a much friendlier, more open, more generous place if people shared things, a lot less "clique-ish" and such, which is something I've seen a lot of long term fandom members complain about both in reading old posts here and reading various blogs and things. I'm relatively new so it's not something I've experienced so much yet but it's sad to think about. It's just weird to hear because I really can't think of any other fandom I've been around where most fans weren't absolutely eager to share anything they'd come across, especially songs. This x1000.
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Post by emptypromises on Feb 3, 2012 18:00:19 GMT -5
Or, we could be patient and maybe, if they exist in JT or Nick's vaults, they'll get released one day and we won't have to pay to have someone "share their ball"...or rather, we'll be able to pay the actual artists, the only ones who really deserve to make money off of their work. Let me follow on your argument here. Lets just say I have in my possession finished, but unreleased demo tracks from Rio on a studio reference CD (I do not, this is just an example). For numbers of reasons, no one in the band, or at EMI have this music. Your argument is, I should upload it online so no-one has to pay for the music. Ideally, you could pay the band, but there it is. If I so generously upload the tracks online, I have reduced the value of the songs to effectively ZERO. So, even if the band *wanted* to have those tracks officially released, they will see very little - if any benefit from them. So, in effect, anyone who is (in your words 'hording') rare materials is actually doing the band a favour. Neat. What might be fun is to list out all the 'rare' DD materials that have been put on CD or online and guess as to the source, and what the underlying cost of those materials is/was. I will guarantee that 99% was not acquired for free, and in most cases, was very expensive (not £0.99 iTunes copyright violations mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Post by figital on Feb 3, 2012 18:36:32 GMT -5
yes, that was the one thing that none of us considered... (*it was touched on briefly, but not explored like it should've been.) the economics of it all. think of every single bootleg dd item you have in your collection: then consider that everyone of them has a source and that sources motivation may have had a lot to do with cash. in the 80s all the bootleg vinyl that surfaced was not cheap. i used to pay 25-50 dollars for a vinyl boot. someone made that money and obviously they used the money to cover the costs of sourcing the material and pressing it up. for a good explanation of all of this, i recommend this book... bootleg - the secret history of the other recording industry by clinton heylin www.amazon.com/Bootleg-Secret-History-Recording-Industry/dp/0312142897this is going to clue people into how these things really work. it's all about the money for some. sure for us as fans, we don't want to pay for what we feel should be free, especially now in the modern age of digital entitlement. but as was pointed out, this shit doesn't fall from the sky for free most times. would you sneak into the vaults at emi and steal a tape of rare bowie or duran and then just give it away? hell, no! maybe if you were a duran fan you'd consider it. but what if you're just an opportunist who wants to turn a buck, like most of these people likely were? as much as i really do wish people wouldn't hoard the cool stuff they have, i can totally get it. if you had to pay 2000 dollars for the whole tape of the snippets that i posted, why the hell would you just give it away?? not that i condone selling it, but at least i understand that it is the path a lot of bootlegs take to get to us the fans. the trickle down is what makes it free...so it is found, bought, paid for and then sold as a bootleg on cd or vinyl. once a bunch of copies are made and sold, the person gets their costs back and then eventually it ends up being traded for free. now for a live show, i think that should always be free since tech has come so far it's easy to make a stellar sounding recording with no overhead costs but the recorder. but when it comes to demos, outtakes and other really bona fide rareities, there has to be a cost otherwise most people wouldn't take the risk to acquire it to begin with. so if any of you punks are sitting on any live shows you've recorded yourself, you'd better share them out!! of course we all think it should/want it to be free, cos not too many of us have thousands of dollars lying around to give to some bootlegger for a tape he likely stole to begin with. and i hate the idea that cool stuff like the demos i only have chunks of could be in some dude's basement just sitting, or worse, been lost in a flood or thrown away. but that my friends is the reality of the world of the musical underground. and unless we consider that we might have to pay for a cd of the material once someone has splashed down the moolah for the tapes, it might never see the light of day. sad but true.
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errbt
PAPER GOD
"untalented guitarist"
Posts: 1,726
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Post by errbt on Feb 4, 2012 2:26:44 GMT -5
Or, we could be patient and maybe, if they exist in JT or Nick's vaults, they'll get released one day and we won't have to pay to have someone "share their ball"...or rather, we'll be able to pay the actual artists, the only ones who really deserve to make money off of their work. Let me follow on your argument here. Lets just say I have in my possession finished, but unreleased demo tracks from Rio on a studio reference CD (I do not, this is just an example). For numbers of reasons, no one in the band, or at EMI have this music. Your argument is, I should upload it online so no-one has to pay for the music. Ideally, you could pay the band, but there it is. If I so generously upload the tracks online, I have reduced the value of the songs to effectively ZERO. So, even if the band *wanted* to have those tracks officially released, they will see very little - if any benefit from them. So, in effect, anyone who is (in your words 'hording') rare materials is actually doing the band a favour. Neat. What might be fun is to list out all the 'rare' DD materials that have been put on CD or online and guess as to the source, and what the underlying cost of those materials is/was. I will guarantee that 99% was not acquired for free, and in most cases, was very expensive (not £0.99 iTunes copyright violations mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Discuss amongst yourselves. I don't know of many collectors who wouldn't buy the official release of something even after having obtained good quality "unofficial" sources, either paid for or shared. The band would still make money. The funny part is, most bands sit on that kind of stuff because they don't think it would sell enough to make it worth a release to begin with, as only diehard fans would buy it. Your argument also makes no sense because if the band or record label don't have possession of a recording in the first place, they could never make money off of it no matter what the scenario. Even putting something out there in unofficial release for a charge (but hopefully not gouging) is still better than sitting on it to stroke your ego because you have it. Again, it comes down to: why do you like music, and why do you collect music? In the end, it probably reveals quite a bit about your personality.
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Post by MissNovemberTuesday on Feb 4, 2012 6:10:47 GMT -5
The rare stuff is the stuff people dont talk about, I'm sure some of the board have stuff they would never talk about! very true. i am guilty of this. If it is something you already have, why keep it a secret? I understand the desire to keep your mouth shut until you find it yourself, but what about after that?
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Post by MissNovemberTuesday on Feb 4, 2012 6:15:49 GMT -5
I'd agree. Reportage is definitely something I'd like to hea most! I'm not convinced this will ever officially be released, and it would be great if it just got leaked on to the web if it's likely not to see the light of day. There must be copies of Reportage out there! Add me to the list. I would love to hear these tracks. It isn't like I won't be buying multiple copies if it is ever officially released anyway.
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Post by MissNovemberTuesday on Feb 4, 2012 6:36:58 GMT -5
I see that all of those things were addressed in the rest of the discussion. I understand the points about demos and such, but if you have something the BAND doesn't even have, wouldn't the best thing to do be to CONTACT the band and see if THEY might want it?? Or, you know, a copy of it. I mean, as we all know how Nick is, I would think he would reward someone for making something available to him. Very least, it would be an opportunity to meet up with the guys and share what you have. (@ least I would say it would only be fair to meet if I was going to share something like that.) Anyway, THEN they could release it if they wanted to.
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Post by MissNovemberTuesday on Feb 4, 2012 6:56:42 GMT -5
Oh, aside from DD itself, I forgot to mention I have the CD/DVD of John with Stewart Copeland, John Densmore and a bunch of others for the New Roads School fundraiser. I know that is not particularly common.
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